Aircraft down at Leigh Creek

[turboplanner]

Best time for for a short aerobatic flight is at the end of the day so taking off 20 minutes prior to last light is what I like. 

 

All flight schools that I am aware of have 30 minutes before last light in their Ops Manuals. It seems to me that this rule has changed in Part 91.

 

That is the perfect case for the regulation being correct.

 

The fight schools are adopting a standard which allows a little more for arrival time delays and that's just being prudent.

 

From the description of this case, sundown wouldn't have been too comfortable either, so there's nothing to stop anyone deciding that their planning limit is going to be 30 minutes before Sundown., and so cater for any runway direction in the planned landing area.

 

 

[facthunter]

Never used it myself Pots and the 20 mins I mentioned earlier was considered a "Practical" absolute minimum. The further you are from destination would require planning for a 10% error of total Flight time and you can easily exceed that. IF you doing airwork in the training area it's another matter. You are only minutes away. There's no point in pushing these boundaries without alternative plans of action...Nev

 

 

[Ironpot]

EOD is not the same as “sunset”. EOD is the end of “civil twilights” when the sun is 6 degrees BELOW the horizon. 

 

EOD tables are in the AIP.

 

I understand that you must PLAN to have an ETA at least 10 minutes before so I reckon it’s allow P for plenty!

 

 

[turboplanner]

EOD is not the same as “sunset”. EOD is the end of “civil twilights” when the sun is 6 degrees BELOW the horizon. 

 

EOD tables are in the AIP.

 

I understand that you must PLAN to have an ETA at least 10 minutes before so I reckon it’s allow P for plenty!

 

If you’re referring to my post it’s about the earlier sunset vs EOD where being forced to land into the sun also has its difficulties.

 

 

[Mike Gearon]

On 12/07/2019 at 12:20 PM, Yenn said:

I did some night flying years ago and never once used landing lights. I was trained to use the runway lights and found them OK. That was just what I was taught and could well be wrong.

 

 

I was nearly going to post this earlier in response to Facthunter discussing landing lights. The landing lights are almost a distraction. When you’ve spent endless hours learning to look down the runway for landing perspective and then at night you’re presented with a beam aimed at your landing point it’s distracting. I was warned about it and still managed to fixate on the beam first landing and was given the not too gentle reminder to look up the runway. 
 

If the lights were more car headlight style maybe. This was a fairly old Cessna 172 with what seemed to be spotlights.

[Mike Gearon]

On 10/07/2019 at 8:00 AM, pmccarthy said:

Returning to topic.

 

the Leigh Creek accident has similarities to an incident I have written about for Flight Safety. It happened many years ago, I had about 200 hours experience. The features were_

 

multi-day trip involving two aeroplanes

 

delay after lunch time with anxiety to get away

 

arrival after last light to find near ground level it was totally dark.

 

the main cause for me was that I assumed the other pilot was monitoring things. He had more experience.

 

we were saved by people who cut locks on the airfield gate and drove cars in for headlight landing and aiming points.

 

the landing was then uneventful, but the half hour circling in the dark was stressful and dangerous for me and three pax.

 

the main lesson for me was to take responsibility for all aspects of your own flight when flying in company.

 

 

Wow, right there is experience I’d have been caught by. I’d have trusted a much more experienced pilot and followed. Lesson learned!

 

I tracked back to incidents part of forum via research on Brumby via RFguy and then seeing these planes made in China. They must be assembled in Australia as final stage. Correct me if I’m wrong. Just going in the Chinese characters in factory pic. So, seeing China I thought about quality. I’m in Taiwan where quality is much closer to Japan standards. Just ask somebody about machine tool purchase. Taiwan or China... Taiwan every time and granted china’s quality is always increasing. It’s still to be avoided if possible unless very well controlled and this must be the case with Brumby.

 

So, research sends me back to the dreaded incidents section that sent me packing last time. So difficult to respect the pilot, passenger, friends and family and also provide us all with more experience. That story is a gotcha moment. Amazing. At that point if they’d not had lock cutting I’d expect you’d just ram your car through the gates. Well done by all involved. Your experience sits in my back pocket now. Cheers.

[RFguy]

actually I understand that the aviation QC setup that Brumby stuff is made of has to meet very high standards- same as RPT aircraft in china- they adopted carte blanch ( I am told) USA safety and quality control systems to the book. .. My understanding of that crash was that it was  'quite dark'  and pilot became disorientated... looking at the time at Leigh Creek that time of year- go and look at the sunrise time.

 

Edited September 27, 2020 by RFguy

[facthunter]

With thin fog or smoke, Lights maybe no help or even a hindrance. Good ones are extremely bright. Improvised arrangements are very variable,usually several vehicles with lights facing away illuminating the strip(sort of). In that situation some landing lights are probably necessary after you've passed over the vehicles to see anything.

   When I first flew at night you had flamepots down one  (the left) side only and an extra each end. In the middle length wise, bank (wings level) wasn't easy to judge. At a "proper" airport it's possible to not use them but most do as the regular lights are quite visible in any conditions where you would be operating (legally). You would turn them off where another aircraft may be lining up  or your lights would be shining in their eyes out of courtesy. and consideration. Nev

Edited September 28, 2020 by facthunter
expand

[Yenn]

Many years since I flew at night, but I found it easier to land on an aerodrome using only the runway lights. The landing lights did not make it easier.

[RFguy]

I thought "landing lights' were only so others could see you coming.

You would need a bucket of light to have any impact at 300 feet AGL.

Not just a bucket, a mega bucket.

[facthunter]

Proper ones ARE extremely powerful. They get so hot you have to cycle them on long taxy occasions. They are for landing. that's why they are where they are . You can purchase torches that will "see"  easily 500 meters but don't shine them in peoples eyes. Nev

[RFguy]

Hi Nev.OK yeah. but not found on all LSAs....I would think cockpit would have to be dark or red,  and eyes well adjusted for the small lights on LSAs and cessnas to work- but I have no experience . Just based on my observations with torches.

[facthunter]

Red light was common till after the war. Later it was suggested it affected visual chromatic balance and was discontinued.  Good adjustable instrument back lighting is now the go and some is automatically turned on by a sensor IF rally cars can have powerful lights so can small planes. Strobe lights are far more effective for being seen by others but interferes with the plane crews vision in cloud at night (reflects back off the cloud)and is often turned off in those circumstances. Nev

Edited September 30, 2020 by facthunter
clarity