Guest deanfi Posted July 14, 2019 Share Posted July 14, 2019 Sadly Another big loss of life, this link has a picture of a Gipps Ga8 not sure if that was the type involved, there is some video on twitter , it is a very fast impact , maybe no wings attached https://www.thelocal.se/20190714/nine-killed-in-plane-crash-in-northern-sweden https://mobile.twitter.com/AmichaiStein1/status/1150414446747107328 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laeros Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 It was a Gipps GA8 for sure. Some are speculating that parts of the wing or the horisontal stabiliser separated from the body, but on the videos it looks like the wings are still attached. Not sure about the hs, which is hard to see. They found one lift producing surface that could be either part of the wing or the horisontal stabiliser (or maybe the vertical stab, but looks more like the horisontal) in the water, some distance from the crash site. The plane dived from around 12000 feet, it was apparently ready for drop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest deanfi Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 Looking at this video it is hard to see but I think the elevator / stabilator is missing in the dive https://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/national/eyewitness-recounts-horror-of-deadly-skydiving-plane-crash-in-sweden/video/5731d48185186903a84e85603e5586c5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onetrack Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 That wasn't a dive, it was a vertical fall with no control systems inputs. It looks like a rock falling out of the sky. That scenario has to be a major in-flight breakup. I don't reckon that aircraft fell from 12,000 feet, or some of the skydivers would have survived by jumping. The reports are, that it crashed not long after takeoff. There are witness reports that some of the skydivers tried to jump, but the aircraft was too low for their parachutes to open. Perhaps the witness reports were wrong, and what they saw was simply bodies being flung from the falling aircraft, as it disintegrated. What is interesting is the aircraft is reported to have "undergone inspection" only 3 weeks ago, and no problems, or potential problems were found. Obviously, that inspection was inadequate. The ATSB is going to get involved in the investigation, because of the fact that it's an Australian-built aircraft - and no doubt the Swedish aviation authorities will be wanting to know a lot more about the Airvan. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/15/skydiving-plane-crash-kills-all-nine-on-board https://www.thelocal.se/20190715/what-we-know-about-the-fatal-plane-crash-in-northern-sweden-so-far https://www.theaustralian.com.au/world/aussies-to-help-investigate-deadly-swedish-plane-crash/news-story/eef19defb0dde9955a7ddc9b928c6a98 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laeros Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 Flightradar history shows the plane to be at approximately 13400 feet just before the crash at 1205Z (SE-MES), and a fellow pilot airborne in the area at the time reported that the pilot of the accident plane was preparing to drop (as reported on radio). During the press conference yesterday, Swedish accident investigation board confirmed that the plane didn't hit the ground in one piece, but they wouldn't disclose which parts were found at different sites. Pictures of a metal surface hoisted upf from the sea/lake looked big, too big to be only one side of the horisontal stabiliser. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laeros Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 Local newspapers are reporting that Australian aviation authorities last fall warned about a (potential?) manufacturing flaw in the wing mounts which could lead to metal fatigue, was there an accident prior to this in Australia? I think we would know if it was a midair collision with anything other than a bird. Not sure of the risks of (huge!) bird strike at that altitude? Also seems like they were at an ground speed of 75-85 kts just before the crash. Which would be close to drop speed? Here's a picture of the part they found in the river close to the crash site: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thruster88 Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 What is interesting is the aircraft is reported to have "undergone inspection" only 3 weeks ago, and no problems, or potential problems were found. Obviously, that inspection was inadequate. Speaking as an AME and pilot it is far more likely that the pilot lost control leading to structural failure or a parachute deployed in the aircraft leading to structural failure. I may be over sensitive. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laeros Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 If I'm not mistaken, the picture above (or first part of the Herald Sun video) shows the right wing with the stall warning. In the video there is also a smaller wing surface with a flap lying on the ground, that looks similar to a horisontal stabilisator and elevator in size. I could be wrong, though. According to the POH, the stall warning sensor is on the leading edge of the right wing. Could the tail surfaces have broken off from impact of a chute or another object, and the wing have collapsed from secondary forces after loss of control? I guess only the investigation will give us the answer. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kasper Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 I do not like to speculate - my comments are on the pics and video only. 1. the size of the piece puled from the water is approx the size of the wing outboard of the lift strut attach 2. the video (while blurry) shows to my eye two stub wings of approx same size but not full correct wingspan and not much at the rear for horizontal stab. My interpretation of the final point of crash is that the two outboard wings are missing from the strut outward and that the horizontal stab (both sides) are not there. How it got into that situation is conjecture and as a former jumper and current pilot I can see in theory how this may have occured. The only comment I will make is that if the aircraft is that out of control before the door is open its entirely possible to have it come from 12,000+ feet without the jumpers being able to get out. Very sad incident and hopefully the sequence of events that resulted in the deaths will become clear to the investigators. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laeros Posted July 19, 2019 Share Posted July 19, 2019 Looks like Gipps GA8 has been temporarily grounded in Australia and in EASA countries: http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/EASAAD20190177E.pdf 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thruster88 Posted July 19, 2019 Share Posted July 19, 2019 Looks like Gipps GA8 has been temporarily grounded in Australia and in EASA countries: http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/EASAAD20190177E.pdf Nothing from casa(Australia) at this time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 Grounding it is logical in the circumstances till more is known.. Having all the parts will disclose the nature of the failure. Being an ex meat bomber, I was always concerned about loading the strut , or someone hitting the tailfeathers.. The plane is close to the stall and a lot is happening. Nev. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thruster88 Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 Nothing from casa(Australia) at this time. All grounded from midnight tonight july20 for 15 days. Hope for all the commercial operator's that this can be resolved in a timely way. CASA has written to all Australian operators of GA8 aircraft advising them of the temporary suspension and reminding them of their obligation to comply with all applicable GA8 Airworthiness Directives issued by CASA Could be somthing in that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onetrack Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 AD/GA8/9 is rather concerning - particularly this bit ... "A manufacturing quality escape has resulted in wing strut fittings in the effective serial number range to be manufactured with incorrect grain orientation. The fatigue implications of the incorrect grain are not well understood. Therefore, CASA has mandated a conservative factored fatigue life limit based on the known fleet data of the affected aircraft. CASA will continue to gather data for the purposes of managing the fleet removal of these fittings from service." One hopes that this particular Swedish GA8 wasn't missed, due to paperwork or communication errors, or language difficulties. https://services.casa.gov.au/airworth/airwd/ADfiles/under/ga8/GA8-009.pdf There are 10 AD's relating to the GA8, and one is related to wing strut fittings, and one is related to HS inspection for cracking and improper assembly of fasteners. https://services.casa.gov.au/airworth/airwd/schedules/ad_display.asp?sched=under&toc=ga8 The destruction of SE-MES is very extensive, the fuselage broke in half at the cargo door, and the rear section is missing all its tail structures. The photo below shows the rear fuselage section lying in the forest, obviously some distance from the rest of the wreckage, thus indicating the fuselage broke apart in the air. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-20/plane-crash-near-umea,-sweden-1/11328534 SE-MES in better days. https://www.flickr.com/photos/46191393@N08/27343742728 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laeros Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 In the crash there were 9 persons on board. Is that normal in a configuration like this where they probably had removed most of the seats for skydivers? The AC is normallly certified for 8 persons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest deanfi Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 This YouTube video was taken on a older / previous flight in the aircraft that crashed ,on this flight I count 7 including camera person but may be more, hard to see . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laeros Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 Yeah, on this flight the copilot's seat is empty, though? I read on Umeå skydiving's website that the capacity of SE-MES was 8 divers. IE 9 including pilot. I'm sure this is within certification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onetrack Posted July 20, 2019 Share Posted July 20, 2019 With a bit of luck, one of the victims carrying a video on the fated flight may have taken some useful footage, that helps investigators pin down the reason/s for the crash. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laeros Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 Seems the AD has been cancelled, the aircraft was exposed to aerodynamic loads beyond what it was certified for: http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/EASAAD20190177CN.pdf?fbclid=IwAR0SwFFLDaaoL9Ho8aLiHa-xQ451Tti90EERKVcF4CIcvZucErNyOxAMxag 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onetrack Posted July 26, 2019 Share Posted July 26, 2019 Wow, that must be the fastest crash inspection conclusion in recent history! The damage must have been so substantial and so obvious, it wasn't even worth a laboratory inspection. I'm thinking that the major components must have exhibited very clearly visible tearing damage, over an extended area, a potent indication of severe overload. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest deanfi Posted July 26, 2019 Share Posted July 26, 2019 Maybe video from the skydivers had some cause of the overload which would explain the quick conclusion , then again maybe not , time will tell. The Swedish accident department says the right wing , the vertical and both horizontal stabilizers separated in flight, quite a break up , must of been terrifying for the poor souls on board. https://www.havkom.se/en/investigations/civil-luftfart/olycka-med-flygplanet-se-mes-av-typen-gibbsland-g8-airvan-naera-umea-flygplats-den-14-juli-2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thruster88 Posted July 26, 2019 Share Posted July 26, 2019 Wow, that must be the fastest crash inspection conclusion in recent history! The damage must have been so substantial and so obvious, it wasn't even worth a laboratory inspection. I'm thinking that the major components must have exhibited very clearly visible tearing damage, over an extended area, a potent indication of severe overload. Pre existing faults (fatigue cracks or corrosion ) are very easy to see in failed parts such as spars, struts, attach fittings. The way parts are bent and broken can determine the sequence of events. There would have been plenty of time to get parts to a lab if that was required 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacesailor Posted July 27, 2019 Share Posted July 27, 2019 As they All had Parachutes , Why didn't they bail. No I haven't read or seen any footage on this accident. Just the headlines. spacesailor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bull Posted July 27, 2019 Share Posted July 27, 2019 As they All had Parachutes , Why didn't they bail. No I haven't read or seen any footage on this accident. Just the headlines. spacesailor Maybe the breakup happened so fast and with such high G and no restraints they where forced against the roof ,very sad event no matter what cause........as they where getting ready to drop ,,some how lost a part of the horizontal stab maybe ???who knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thruster88 Posted September 19, 2020 Share Posted September 19, 2020 A link to the final report here Investigation: AE-2019-034 - Accredited Representative to the Swedish Accident Investigation Authority investigation of the loss of control and in flight break up involving GippsAero, GA8 Airvan registered SE-MES, near Umeå Airport, Sweden, on 14 July 2019 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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