red750 Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 This dashcam video of the crash of a KingAir 350 at Addison Texas on June 30 is remarkably similar to the crash at Essendon in February 2017. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Possum1 Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 Landing gear appears to be still down, like in the Essendon accident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onetrack Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 Did the King Air at Essendon, go down inverted, as this King Air did? I'd guess an extra 6 pax may have changed the dynamics of the stall here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red750 Posted July 18, 2019 Author Share Posted July 18, 2019 From the dashcam at Essendon, the plane was right way up looking like it wa about to land parallel to rwy 09, but the swing to the left immediately after liftoff is what I was referring to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 That result is exactly what will happen if a PT 6 engine loses power and is not able to be feathered. A turbo prop has the potential to develop DRAG many times that of the rated forward thrust, so has to have auto feather capacity to be safe it low level on initial take off. This is NOT what happened at Essendon. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfly Posted August 20, 2019 Share Posted August 20, 2019 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thruster88 Posted August 20, 2019 Share Posted August 20, 2019 Looks very similar to Essendon, especially the side yaw. I still believe that at Essendon the rudder trim cable could have been pulled early in the impact sequence, the left cable was found broken so some force was applied. The fin structure still intact at this point guided the cable on and off the drum in the normal way until the structure deformed leaving the witness mark in the actuator at the full left rudder trim position. If the the trim was full left prior to take off how did it get there. Why didn't the pilot adjust the trim if he was standing on the right rudder. So many unanswered questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted August 20, 2019 Share Posted August 20, 2019 The similarity is only the type and that a turnback was involved and they both ended up in the roof of a hangar. One was an engine failure and the other was a mishandled rudder trim situation Both involve managing a yaw and managing energy/drag relationships. This type of aircraft usually relies on auto feather as a turboprop power unit can generate more drag than it gave in thrust IF it's not feathered quickly you are going DOWN and will have acute YAW problems and may get below VMC(a) rapidly where the full rudder will not stop a yaw towards the dead engine which will then be followed by a wing drop and roll inverted and a near vertical nosedive into the ground. As well as getting the dead engine feathered the gear must be retracted as soon as a positive climb is achieved. The plane must also be loaded within the limits of the runway conditions. Wind velocity ,temp, density altitude, obstacle limits runway length limits etc. The plane should be able to fly after V1 (decision speed, but really a point on the runway) Up till that point it should be able to safely stop within the confines of the runway and any over run area available. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onetrack Posted August 20, 2019 Share Posted August 20, 2019 One would suspect, reading between the lines, that this TX King Air would have been right at, or even over MTOW. Also, with no wind and 79°F temperature, he had no advantage there, in either area. I am surprised that a 71 yr old ATPL wouldn't have been better prepared for EFATO, and taken more appropriate action to get back down on the ground quickly, when it became obvious that one engine had failed. It appears that he did little in response to the EFATO, and it looks like he was expecting the King Air to just keep flying and gaining height on one engine, despite everything being against him. Taking on full fuel for a trip that wasn't all that long, when he was already fully loaded with pax and luggage, seems like a poor choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted August 20, 2019 Share Posted August 20, 2019 There is no need to get back down QUICKLY unless there's fire involved. That's a point that must be made and emphasised. . Maintaining control and performance is all that's required.. Staying on the ground if any degradation of performance or( unusual condition suspected. MY WORDS) is in evidence also, prior to V1. I can't agree with the Fly overloaded (hope?). It flys if it's the right weight and the pilot does ALL the things at the speeds and flying technique required and reacts within a short time. It's a pretty fine line required but done every renewal though not at limit conditions usually and the engine will be set at a power that simulates the engine feathered and secured, but not shut down. Modern planes are CERTIFIED to make certain climb gradients , unlike some of the earlier stuff where you couldn't even feather a sick or dead motor and therefore had two chances of not making it on each take off. Nev 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfly Posted March 16, 2023 Share Posted March 16, 2023 On 18/07/2019 at 4:15 PM, onetrack said: Did the King Air at Essendon, go down inverted, as this King Air did? I'd guess an extra 6 pax may have changed the dynamics of the stall here. This is a video analysis of the Essendon accident. Interesting discussion in Comments section if you 'Watch on YouTube'. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted March 16, 2023 Share Posted March 16, 2023 The comments section contained little of value, really. With 2 engines running at achievable power the Plane should have been easily able to stay airborne even with the U/C still extended. Trim is often wound through full travel during the first flight of the day but always returned to central unless otherwise specified like for a high powered piston single. tailwheel. I've had a lot of discussion including with pilots who operated out of Essendon at that time. No conclusive cause is established as far as I know. A lot of things don't add up but pilot incapacity of some kind seems a possible cause. (to me).. Nev. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfly Posted March 16, 2023 Share Posted March 16, 2023 (edited) 30 minutes ago, facthunter said: The comments section contained little of value, really. With 2 engines running at achievable power the Plane should have been easily able to stay airborne even with the U/C still extended. Trim is often wound through full travel during the first flight of the day but always returned to central unless otherwise specified like for a high powered piston single. tailwheel. I've had a lot of discussion including with pilots who operated out of Essendon at that time. No conclusive cause is established as far as I know. A lot of things don't add up but pilot incapacity of some kind seems a possible cause. (to me).. Nev. Really? I found a few of them that added more than I'd gathered from some other forums. AMREP 3 weeks ago I have many thousands of hours acting as PIC on this model. I don't buy the rudder trim issue. I can think of no reason for the rudder trim to be set fully in one direct or the other except for checking that it has unrestricted full travel during the ground checks. Could have become distracted and failed to center it again after the check. However, This airplane has some pretty serious balls when you open the throttles for takeoff. I can't imagine a pilot of a twin turboprop not immediately aborting the takeoff at the first sign that the airplane was pulling incredibly hard in one direction or the other. The incredibly strong pull would have happened long before the airplane was fast enough to fly. I.e., if it was the rudder trim issue, it would have pulled so hard prior to 'RedLine' that it would have been suicide to not abort and keep it on the ground at ALL costs! Sadly, when everyone in the airplane is lost, we have to go with what we think might have happened. My guess is )and I am one of a handful of pilots around the globe that don't automatically become a crash investigator immediately after an accident) that there was more to this than meets the eye. My sympathy to their families. Wally Wally 3 weeks ago This still haunts me I knew Max the driver, we used to cross paths on various charters, I’m convinced Max had a medical event and simply couldn’t handle this flight on the day. I’ve got 4000 hrs on type, the plane can handle the full trim deflection, Max couldn’t. RIP to all Darryl Day 3 weeks ago Thank you, I wondering how an experienced pilot could make so many errors before flight and then during the flight fail to raise the gear and apply rudder once airborne. Makes sense now. Animula 3 weeks ago That makes sense because the longer roll than normal and the gear being left down too. He must have had something major distracting him and thought he would get past it as he took off, but then he figured out it was too serious and sent the mayday but couldn’t manage the aircraft because of whatever was going on. 3 weeks ago Thx Wally, I came to comments to see if someone with knowledge could verify my suspicion that it wouldn't have been trim. 4 passengers is a light load. Seems like something else was likely. Charles Brewer 6 days ago Thanks for your video. Some comments though. You said the retail centre was just outside the airport. In fact it was built within the original airport grounds. This is an increasing problem in Australia as airports have been sold off to private operators. //... In the event of an emergency there is now no where an aircraft can safely put down! This is a growing problem. At Bankstown (YSBK) the 18/36 runway was closed years ago and the area converted into commercial real estate. //... At Camden (YSCN) a nursing home has been built in line with the runway in a position that used to be rural land and was available for aircraft in an emergency. An aircraft cannot return to the runway unless it has reached around 1,000 ft,//... In the case of Camden, that means into the nursing home! Local Councils must be held to account for their irresponsible planning decisions. Edited March 16, 2023 by Garfly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted March 16, 2023 Share Posted March 16, 2023 The few Good ones were far outweighed by the rest. and there was nothing new in the good ones.. I outlined my views and I previously have not relied on U tube or such and am very wary of most forums. I've has discussions face to face with REAL people which helps me a lot Nothing I've proposed is radical and agrees with the few you posted. . Nothing is conclusive as I read it. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfly Posted March 16, 2023 Share Posted March 16, 2023 Wow, sorry to misdirect you and waste your time on a mere forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted March 16, 2023 Share Posted March 16, 2023 I'm posting aren't I and trying to contribute to the subject on THIS forum. Cut the sarcasm. It doesn't help. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfly Posted March 16, 2023 Share Posted March 16, 2023 5 minutes ago, facthunter said: I'm posting aren't I and trying to contribute to the subject on THIS forum. As are others in their own way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted March 16, 2023 Share Posted March 16, 2023 (edited) I understand and support that. Surely you would allow some comment on the comments Most of them are not helpful at all and many just plain wrong in their assumptions. Many are not pilots and just don't know. I don't ask the butcher or the cabbie or the general public how to fly planes. I take more notice of other pilots who have skin in the game. I'm interested in finding answers and causes primarily so that's my focus. Safety. Always has been. I really don't think that you and I are that far apart and I'm sorry if it ruffled your feathers .My intention was to discuss it. Nev Edited March 16, 2023 by facthunter 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfly Posted March 16, 2023 Share Posted March 16, 2023 (edited) Absolutely, you've got to sift heaps of chaff on YT - and most social media. As you say, the Comments are susceptible to a whole world of opinionated ignorance. On the upside, there's a large installed base of subject-savvy contributors, as well. One has to grit one's teeth and be ready to speed-scroll. That being said, it's gonna do my head in if I have to be told, once more, that "There are old pilots and there are bold pilots ...blah, blah, blah." ;- ) Edited March 16, 2023 by Garfly 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted March 16, 2023 Share Posted March 16, 2023 Yeah I don't swallow that garbage either. Same as there are only those who have landed Gear up and those who are going to and hands up those who haven't stalled accidently??? THAT wouldn't want to happen very often. TRY NEVER. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfly Posted March 16, 2023 Share Posted March 16, 2023 As Sam Goldwyn famously put it: “Let's have some new cliches.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted March 16, 2023 Share Posted March 16, 2023 How about I sell you some Air Pockets cheap? Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Student Pilot Posted March 16, 2023 Share Posted March 16, 2023 On 20/08/2019 at 12:06 PM, Garfly said: I still find ole mates videos hard to watch, my limited intelligence, bad comprehension short attention span got a bit to do with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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