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I agree.. But in the case of the App, what is the risk.. someone could get who you are and where you have been and maybe if you have the virus (though I doubt the latter).. Unless it gets access to your account payment details (whcih I don't think it can), what is the worst that could happen and what is the probability it could happen? This has to be weghed up against the good it can do.

 

I would imagine your energy company, ATO, state vehigle registration, all necessary institutions we have our details with - and probably far more sensitive (unless you have something to hide), and there is every change that your details get leaked from there, too.. Same with yur mobile phone operator. You don't have a choice with these - you have to have to have an energy supplier (unless you are totally off grid) and they could also have a bad apple in them.

 

I am not

 

 

"You make a risk assessment and make a decision".

 

I did and I have, thank you for allowing me to do so?

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I agree.. But in the case of the App, what is the risk.. someone could get who you are and where you have been

 

Not even where you have been - just the fact your phone has come within 1.5 metres of another phone for 15 mins. No location data is stored. Info greater than 21 days old deleted as no longer relevant. App can be deleted after this is over, or at any other time.

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Octave, I am extremely wary of holding any personal information on my smartphone, and I do not use my phone for any banking transactions whatsoever.

 

I only do internet banking on my desktop, via a separate token system, which provides a high degree of security, as both devices need to be together, to access my account.

 

The problem with IT and apps and smartphones is the gradual erosion of our privacy, personal details, movements, and permissions, by stealth.

 

An app, programme or some other IT arrangement is devised and before long the "holes" are found in it, and it is being abused. We are being tracked without our permission as I speak - by nameless overseas corporations.

 

Do you know how many unknown companies are tracking you right at this moment? No, you wouldn't - it's in the hundreds, and you wouldn't even know the names of the companies that are tracking you.

 

Download Ghostery and see how much you're being tracked, and your data used without your permission, by companies and organisations you never gave any permission to, to use your information.

 

Nothing is secure in this world, and even encryption can be hacked. Police depts are supposed to have secure databases, yet corrupt Police access police databases regularly without permission, for nefarious purposes.

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Nothing was secure before we had the WWW & IT either. Your personal information was held by the government, banks, insurance companies, councils, libraries & anyone else you ever filled out a form for. It was just slower to get the information.

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Do you know how many unknown companies are tracking you right at this moment? No, you wouldn't - it's in the hundreds, and you wouldn't even know the names of the companies that are tracking you.

 

I respect your right not to download it if you are anxious but the choice for me is a rational one. Apart from being able to get back to face to face work with a slightly higher level of confidence that I will be informed early and therefore can be treated early if i come into contact with it, it will also facilitate my visiting of my father who is approaching his end and in a home that is just starting to come out of lockdown. I will need a flu vaccination and the app if I am to visit him. I believe my choice is rational given the circumstances. I have much more to gain than I have to lose. I believe as a society we also have more to gain than to lose in terms of controlling this disease without giving up too much personal freedom.

 

As you say we are being tracked by many many organizations and businesses and yet we seldom run into catastrophic problems and at least this app is for the very best of reasons.

 

Whilst I am not an IT expert I do have many in the family and some of them are cynics but not one of them has concerns over the way this app works.

 

I am not anxiuos about having this app on my phone whilst the need exists.

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KGW - before the WWW, we had a very much lower chance of being scammed, or our personal information being acquired by crims in 3rd world countries, that have weak and corrupt law enforcement.

But in todays world, the criminal gangs operating in the WWW have increased exponentially, thanks to the total anonymity of the 'net, the inability to find those crims - and even if they are found, the inability of our law enforcement to do anything about their criminality.

It's reported that Australians lose $900,000 a day to scammers. Here in W.A., scammers even managed to acquire major house purchase payments, during house purchasing transactions, by hacking computers and diverting funds.

 

The total value of CC fraud is colossal, the U.S. CC companies lost US$24B last year. We pay for those CC fraud losses in many hidden ways, even though the CC companies tell us they are wearing the losses.

Fraud and ID theft is big business, and it is increasing rapidly year on year - and no Govt., nor any law agency, can do anything to peg it back.

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If the CC cards were wearing those losses, they would be out of business.. Your interes rates are calculated on four main factors: Credit Risk, Market Risk, Operatonal Risk and profit margin. Ever wondered why credit card interest rates are so high.. It's the first three factors that are the risk charge and the fourth represents the free from risk profit. The second would be relatviely small - mainly interest rate swaps to hedge variations in interest rates they pay to fund you and FX/current rate risk. Now, since they have to offer an interest free period, the free from profit rate has to be higher to cover those of us who use free money. So those that are a good payers, but allow a balance to build up are subsidising the free funders and the poor performers..

 

Anyway, banks have to hold tier 1 capital reserves (cash, cash like instruments and intruments easily converted to cash - such as blue chip shares that are not their own) to cover losses for credit, operational and market risk. Credit card fraud comes under the operational risk category.. so they have to estimate each year what their actual credit card fraud loss will be, amongst other things, and hold capital - and that is part of what is embedded into your interest rate is for.. So, of you do allow your credit card to build a balance, you do pay for it.

 

Getting back to track... The UK is about to launch an app as well.. testing it on the Isle of Wight.. I personally think the benefits outweigh the risk... People will think opposite - that's OK... it is still nominally a free society we live in...

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What are you gunna do when all the CV BS is over???

I'll miss the "them & us"?

Hopefully a vaccine will come then we can have the anti vaxxer debate ?

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Hopefully a vaccine will come then we can have the anti vaxxer debate ?

 

Now I'd love that! There's gotta be some spirited debate in that nonsense for sure!? Trust us ( as they stick the 'cool-aide' in you ) we are the Govt!?

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What are you gunna do when all the CV BS is over???

I'll miss the "them & us"?

 

I will go flying..

 

It's not a them and us.. it's a "we're all in this together." We all have choices - we make them.. I am certainly not judging (not that anyone would care if I did)..

 

Ahhh... I was missing Flite Bhindi.....

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I will go flying..

 

It's not a them and us.. it's a "we're all in this together." We all have choices - we make them.. I am certainly not judging (not that anyone would care if I did)..

 

Ahhh... I was missing Flite Bhindi.....

 

Been doing that since the nonsense started! (Flying)??

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Although VFR is not technically banned in the UK, the guidance is only for essential flight (i.e. emergency services) or maintenance flights of not more than 30 minutes and 10nm from the airfield an only when there is no pulished POH or engine manufacturer procedures on how to inhibit the engine - if there is, then it should be inhibited (as well as other inhibiting normally required for winter layovers).

 

And, although only guidance, all airfield operators are adhereing to it; ours only opens to non-essential GA one day per month and you have to book a slot.. Thankfully the days are long at the moment, but may owners, including ourselves have gone down the inhibiting route, so slots were avaialble. As it is, although zero-timed about 12 months ago, we have had the engine stripped and inspected by our shareholder LAME, as it was sitting for 6 months without inhibiting over winter due to a 1 month paint job taking 6. The engine is inhibited now and we don't plan taking it out - hopefully restrictions will be eased towards the end of this month.

 

Regardless, the airfield received numerous complaints from the first maintenance flying day from locals about why aircraft were allowed to fly, despite a PR job beforehand letting people know. It took a hell of a PR job afterwards to educate them as to why and that only a handful of the aircraft there were taking it up as they have no option -whereas most have inhibited. The UK, especially the SE is far more densly populated and people cannot see how a jolly is considered essential and they do complain. For the record, most farm strippers are flying only when they need to (e.g. I know a farmer who has a farm near Newbury, about 60 miles, I would guess, west of London, and anouther holding in Devon, about 130 miles from his Newbury farm. He has a strip on both and does fly in between them when he needs to be there and back on the same day - otherwise he drives).

 

As I said, we're all in this together. In our case, the lockdown is actually in law just guidance, but many people are adhereing to it; some aren't. When its optional, we assess the risks and the benefits, hopefully rationally (which is subjective anyway) and then take a decision. If you're allowed to fly and in your risk etimation you decide to. If I think you are making the wrong decision, I will explain why - if I can't then I am acting on gut and not thinking. If I can and you choose to reject whatever I have to say, that is your perfectly valid decision.

 

In Aus, even from Moorabbin, you can take off from RWY 13 or 17, head SE and you are over open, fairly sparesly populated country in a short period of time (though I am guessing the Dandenon --> Carrum belt is starting to be built out on - and just checking google maps - wow! Hasn't the Cranbourne area had the carp built out of it).. In the SE of England, it is a whole different ball game... Even those rural areas that look sparesly populated have houses dotted all over them - and they do complain - and complain hard. So for us, when we're all in it together, there's not much hiding.. so our decisions are partly based on that. I know that when I'm in the car, the airfield and the air, I am easily able to socially distance... but sometimes there's sympathy suffering, I suppose.

 

Hmm... The market for what I do has completely capitulated (it was coming to an end anyway, which is one reason why I am looking to go back to nuclear). And investment banking is on a downard spiral anyway. However, thank's to the Aussie financial services industry catching up with the rest of the world and playing bad boy, the Aussie market for what I do is quite bouyant. I may pop over, take a 2 week hotel holiday and see what I can get there, and enjoy a sneaky flight in the mean time... ;-)

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but I fully support the right of any business owner to insist upon it for their workers.

The spokesman talking on the radio today said the privacy legislation will make it a criminal offence to insist people have the app.

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The spokesman talking on the radio today said the privacy legislation will make it a criminal offence to insist people have the app.

Bit of a waste of time when the app isn't compulsory isn't it?

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The spokesman talking on the radio today said the privacy legislation will make it a criminal offence to insist people have the app.

 

I certainly wont go back to my job if unless everything possible is done to reduce my risk. In my job (private studio music teacher) work is offered to the teacher who best suits the particular student. Interestingly I have just finished an online teaching session of 10 students in a row although one didn't show, after a phone call I found that the child's mother has just tested positive and is pretty unwell.

 

Would be interesting to know what responsibility an employer has to provide a safe workplace.

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Bit of a waste of time when the app isn't compulsory isn't it?

Yes and no. I can envisage a situation where an employer or a business say you can’t work/come into my business unless you have the app.

In those circumstances what hope does an employee have other than to download the app?

the law would provide a check on parts of society forcing use of the app.

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It depdends on how the privacy laws are worded. In Europle, GDPR (general data protection regulation) is currently considered the gold standard of data protection. However, it clearly states that where it conflicts with other regulations, those regulations prevail. So, if you, as an employer or manager are responsible for providing a safe workplace and subject to regulation in doing so, and in accordance with H&S regulations deem the app necessary to provide a safe workplace, GDPR, if it would normally not allow an employer to force an employee to use the app, may not apply. It is a very grey area though, because one will be forcing the employee to download it on their private device or any device they take with them. Also, unless you take your device with you at all times, it is going to be a bit useless.. .There are all sorts of practicalities to be overcome. This goes back to my comment, we are all in it together and we should do what we need to as a community to overcome it.

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It depdends on how the privacy laws are worded. In Europle, GDPR (general data protection regulation) is currently considered the gold standard of data protection. However, it clearly states that where it conflicts with other regulations, those regulations prevail. So, if you, as an employer or manager are responsible for providing a safe workplace and subject to regulation in doing so, and in accordance with H&S regulations deem the app necessary to provide a safe workplace, GDPR, if it would normally not allow an employer to force an employee to use the app, may not apply. It is a very grey area though, because one will be forcing the employee to download it on their private device or any device they take with them. Also, unless you take your device with you at all times, it is going to be a bit useless.. .There are all sorts of practicalities to be overcome. This goes back to my comment, we are all in it together and we should do what we need to as a community to overcome it.

......thin end of the wedge! Dangerous area ahead!

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None of this is a problem for me as the app won’t run on my iPhone 4s. Govt want me to run it, no sweat they can buy me a new phone:-)

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It depdends on how the privacy laws are worded. In Europle, GDPR (general data protection regulation) is currently considered the gold standard of data protection. However, it clearly states that where it conflicts with other regulations, those regulations prevail. So, if you, as an employer or manager are responsible for providing a safe workplace and subject to regulation in doing so, and in accordance with H&S regulations deem the app necessary to provide a safe workplace, GDPR, if it would normally not allow an employer to force an employee to use the app, may not apply. It is a very grey area though, because one will be forcing the employee to download it on their private device or any device they take with them. Also, unless you take your device with you at all times, it is going to be a bit useless.. .There are all sorts of practicalities to be overcome. This goes back to my comment, we are all in it together and we should do what we need to as a community to overcome it.

Jerry, the way the government here in Australia is talking, our legislation will be quite clear. It will be a criminal offence for anyone to use the data for any purpose other than intended. Also a criminal offence to try to force someone to download and use the app. Illegal for any data to be stored outside Australia etc.. They've already knocked back law enforcement agencies requests to give them the power to access data. I guess we'll find out in a couple of weeks what the final legislation is. I think the government is serious about keeping the nasties out of it so as to encourage maximum takeup of the app.

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Hmmm.. so am I absolved of my obligations to maintain a safe workplace with respect to COVID-19 if I can't force my employees to download and use the app? I see a lot of workcover claims coming... and it is I, the employer that has to pay the increased premium as a result...

 

(I am not an employer in Aus, but you get my drift).

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Hmmm.. so am I absolved of my obligations to maintain a safe workplace with respect to COVID-19 if I can't force my employees to download and use the app? I see a lot of workcover claims coming... and it is I, the employer that has to pay the increased premium as a result...

 

(I am not an employer in Aus, but you get my drift).

The employers are already supposed to be keeping employees apart and disinfecting regularly. If they were following the correct processes the app would be redundant anyway.

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