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Hi RF Are you visiting any other airfields and started xc and passenger endorsement etc?  You may enjoy flying and getting signed off on another type / brand of aircraft.  Nice to read your adventures and flights.  I'm not an instructor and from my learnings and experience any speed 10% or more above the book speeds on late final is a go around (unless emergent circumstances need it planted on with the possibility of damage occurring, eg a fire). Cheers

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I want to thank everyone for their input in my flying journey-  It is a pleasure and a privilege to have opinions from all walks of aviation and experience   thank you- as you all know I beg

During late final I glance the ASI to verify still on the planed stabilised air speed, which should be stable all the way to the aiming point. As if speed decaying you need to add rpm or if your, say

Any time you increase lift on one wing by aileron application you MUST get adverse yaw. Extra drag is a consequence of asking for extra lift and is less efficient (worse L/D ratio) when aileron is inv

Hi Blueadv. XC/passenger not yet, that's next. i'm going to do a little flying at another field shortly just to get look and feel of a different airplane and field.  

 

So, per your 10% note. Well, I would say that once you get "behind" the aircraft (instead of staying ahead of the aircraft) everything starts stacking up... almost need to stop and reassess how and what you are going to do if the final is not stabilized well into it ... (assuming you have choices) - glen

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On 03/10/2020 at 1:32 PM, RFguy said:

Hi Blueadv. XC/passenger not yet, that's next. i'm going to do a little flying at another field shortly just to get look and feel of a different airplane and field.  

 

So, per your 10% note. Well, I would say that once you get "behind" the aircraft (instead of staying ahead of the aircraft) everything starts stacking up... almost need to stop and reassess how and what you are going to do if the final is not stabilized well into it ... (assuming you have choices) - glen

Agreed. 2 of the best pieces of advice from my CFI.

 

1. Stay ahead of the plane.

 

2. In circuit if things start to pile up and you’re feeling pressured just leave the circuit. Fly away and rejoin when you’ve regrouped.

 

Looking forward to your next post. Just noticed your comment on Taiwan... haven’t flown a light aircraft here so no idea on ATC. I’d say with fair certainty it’s English at the larger airports and Chinese would be spoken at the uncontrolled airfields which are bugger all. 
 

Paragliding is challenging with the language barrier and with the mountains. No gentle slopes. Just about 10 to 20 feet of run from the top and you’re out there. It’s all very strange. Cracked 2 ribs with tandem flight. We were climbing the mountain and I was watching the black clouds and going... no, I’d not fly a light plane in this. Turns out we definitely shouldn’t have been flying a paraglider. 
 

just had qantas cancel my Australia flight yet again. Now 13th December and another maybe flight. Hopefully corona free Taiwan and Australia will establish a traffic bubble like New Zealand. 

 

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Flew a J170C today, at aerodrome = 3400 feet and  20deg C. (YJIN)

 

Wow , hills everywhere, no where much to land (except the lake) , approach over a valley and a hill, more difficult. down draughts, runway a driveway wide (sort of)

 

.... Although absolutely gorgeous, picturesque place to fly, amazing.

 

Over banked it a fair bit  the time, and didn't use enough rudder....

As the Brumby I usually fly  is insensitive on  the stick  on roll (lots of movement required ) l and super sensitive on rudder inputs, so it is  kinda  the opposite of the Jabiru.

 

However with 2 x 70kg PAX and 60L fuel, climbing out of those mountain aerodromes is a tricky business with hills every where, and down draughts with the westerly wind blowing, and many of my missions are at aerodromes 2700-4000'.

 

A fair bit of adverse yaw (Brumby has none) .  Needs a 6 cylinder for flying in those hills.  Different nose attitude position relative to horizon tricked me a bit as expected. And of course stick , throttle hand is reversed. The Brumby is clearly a great well behaved aircraft, (at a much higher price ), and Brumby is more noisy. Jab is quiet.

 

Wow that thing can glide !  what a pair of wings it has.....control inputs quite sensitive close to the ground, pretty predictable.... and it is quiet, you can hear the transmission of the surface roughness through the undercarriage. Brumby you never hear that...

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, RFguy said:

Flew a J170C today, at aerodrome = 3400 feet and  20deg C. (YJIN)

 

Wow , hills everywhere, no where much to land (except the lake) , approach over a valley and a hill, more difficult. down draughts, runway a driveway wide (sort of)

 

.... Although absolutely gorgeous, picturesque place to fly, amazing.

 

Over banked it a fair bit  the time, and didn't use enough rudder....

As the Brumby I usually fly  is insensitive on  the stick  on roll (lots of movement required ) l and super sensitive on rudder inputs, so I kinda did the opposite of the Jabiru.

 

However with 2 x 70kg PAX and 60L fuel, climbing out of those mountain aerodromes is a tricky business with hills every where, and down draughts with the westerly wind blowing, and many of my missions are at aerodromes 2700-4000'.

 

A fair bit of adverse yaw (Brumby has none) .  Needs a 6 cylinder for flying in those hills.  Different nose attitude position relative to horizon tricked me a bit as expected. And of course stick , throttle hand is reversed.

 

Wow that thing can glide !  what a pair of wings it has.....control inputs quite sensitive close to the ground, pretty predictable.... and it is quiet.

 

 

 

As you gain more experience you will be able to fly different aircraft and quickly adapt to the control responses. I always sit in the seat that allows controls left hand throttle right, so I would fly a jab from the right seat, same as my thruster.

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One thing for sure, I have new respect for Phil Goard, the designer of the the very well behaved Brumby- if you have the money, they are quality handling machine.  My instructor says they're more like a GA aircraft than any LSA he's flown. 

 

 

 

 

 

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Observations

 

Small direction step input tweaks in the Brumby accomplished by a little roll input  ( in still air, the brumby stays well coordinated until you roll it right over). and there is zero adverse yaw.

 

but- putting in small direction step in put tweaks in the Jab170C with roll are completely negated by the adverse yaw.  IE I have to use the rudder otherwise it wont turn anywhere, it will just roll .  So,  feet need to wake up. Of course with more flying of that machine will yield instinctual feet inputs.

 

This tells me pilots get lazy if the aircraft  permits them  to.

 

step tweaks of the stick  in landing needs more more active feet, (since small roll inputs are just roll and dont give you are directional change due to adverse yaw)... rather than using the feet to get the thing pointing where you want it.  

 

One thing it does have is plenty of aileron authority. there is no shortage of that in the 170 . 

 

Due to the spring trim setup, the control input effort on elevator is much  higher than the roll. 

Roll is very crisp - I detected NO slop or  backlash in the roll inputs.

 

J170 gives plenty of time in the landing- things happen quite slowly, and ground effect feels early,  compared to the brumby when the airspeed drops, the slowdown  is immediate and you will be shortly on the deck.

 

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Any time you increase lift on one wing by aileron application you MUST get adverse yaw. Extra drag is a consequence of asking for extra lift and is less efficient (worse L/D ratio) when aileron is involved. (same as when you add flap which better be on both wings or you are in trouble ). 

 It's also the  EXTENT of aileron application, not any bank angle relationship. In an established turn the aileron is more or  less central .Varies,(depending on whether you are climbing or descending) by a small amount. The best way to compare these two aircraft is do  figure 8's at a decent bank angle. Maintain altitude closely and add and take of power as required to get the speed safety margins you need during the exercise. It's a GOOD one to see if YOU are really on the ball, as well.

  Frise aileron (look it up) can more or less eliminate adverse yaw with aileron application but it's extra drag . (That's how it works). Proper application of rudder is more effective. Rudder is best applied  WITH or just anticipating aileron application, certainly NOT after applying aileron. (if you want to be tidy). 

  How quickly a plane sinks during a landing flare is about extra speed carried and general  "slipperiness" or  even  the rpm the engine idles at. Fast idle makes Jabs float. Idle RPM check is part of your pre take off checks and WAS originally to check for an unreliable idle likely to cut out on a power off approach. but you'll find out if t's a bit fast and/or needs the thottle pulled closed firmly or needs to be adjusted. Nev

Edited by facthunter
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Hi Nev

thanks for the input. understood. Fig 8s are good exercises, have done those.  One thing I will get from my instructor post school will be "regular exercises".

I have become lazy with my feet in the Brumby.  turning was untidy.

cheers

glen.

 

 

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Nev, what is obvious is the independence of control inputs in the Brumby. I see the advantage of this (Brumby) is when landing in gusty Xwind and lots of tweaking step control inputs are into the stick, because the inputs are nice and isolated (no adverse yaw discernible) , IE no interaction between roll and yaw, keeping the aircraft straight with feet and the wing down where I want it is simplified, rather than having to offset feet against adverse yaw generation when the ailerons are tweaked. 

 

-Of course after flying it for some time, those effects become 2nd nature to compensate out.  You just do it.

 

Other difference I noticed, lack of yaw tendency with throttle position on the Jab. Seems to display very little prop wash yaw or roll torque. Big wide wing helps I guess , and the engine (Jab)  is rotated away from center fair bit.... Behaves very well in that regards... Brumby needs a bit of  right rudder when the throttle is opened, especially on or near the ground. (more power, finer pitch prop, shorter wings, bigger tail)

 

 

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Engine offset can do a lot but it can only be right for one condition. Climb or cruise. Guess which is best. Complex interaction of controls when landing is too complex for this form of communicating. Too easy to get something wrong in the process and a wrong concept you don't need.

 . A jabiru (say a  230) requires a lot of fine control adjustments and careful speed management to fly a good circuit whereas say a C-172 can just ride out small disturbances. Gusting can create fishtailing in it's own right like twins get easily especially with full wing tip tanks as they already have a lot of mass out from the C of G .I don't like too much "stability". Near neutral is easier to fly, because the plane obeys YOU. You have more control.  Nev

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Got it.

the mountains aerodrome (3400 feet) , and it wasnt even warm yesterday got me thinking about climb rates  alot of my missions are to tablelands aerodromes. 800-1100m asl, summer... The owner of the J170C yesterday mentioned that on a warm to hot day, given all the constraints to satisfy (short dirt RWY, obstructions to clear ahead, don't overfly the town at low levels, bla bla bla) the 170 couldn't easily get out of there on a hot day at moderate load let alone max gross.- not enough runway AND couldnt clear obstructions easily (ascent rate < 300 fpm) . 

ahh the compromises....

 

 

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You MAY get a descending current of air  that exceeds that figure. Lee side of a hill or even a row of trees or a shed. Different to driving a CAR isn't it?  High and HOT equals a high density altitude. Have a point at which you must be airborne convincingly, or STOP. You will find with a 230 that increasing the speed the climb RATE doesn't reduce much if at  all but the effective climb gradient DOES.  Nev

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Hi Nev

The strip is in  the lee of the hill to the west ...  the strip has THREE windsocks . one at each end, and another at an elevated point abeam the middle (which reads different)

 

A Valley on each end of the strip, a deep one on the 12 approach, if you get a downdraught there, you are not going down into the Canola,  you are going into the side of the hill.... if you don't watch what you are doing and think ahead a bit. The 12 approach is NOT a strip to 'drag it in ' on.   One of those strips to be high / steep on, and be ready to go ahead early if yoru approach at any point doesnt look good..... And its not terribly long (800m approx ) . The 30 approach is not so bad. Not many emergency landing options in circuit.  The lake looks good....

 

 

 

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Back from a couple of days at Cowra in the B610.

 

On SLIPPING...Have been doing alot of slip glide descending turns of late . Especially for steepening up a descent   into an emergency landing field, I'm at the end of the PC training, heading out to the training area solo, doing my drills and exercises.  And paddock choices ! 

 

Observation- I am not sure if its me  (ha ha) but there SEEMS to be some limit to how much it will slip (looking at VSI and roll) IF I dont put the bucket of rudder into it at the same time I put a bucket of roll into it.

 

(trying to explain myself) .If I put the roll in steep and then put the rudder in, it wont go over as steep and wont slip so aggressively, as when to put in the roll and rudder in together....

 

IE if the roll goes in before the rudder, the NOSE stays (more) in the turn direction and you cannot bring it right back to a hard slip. Its slipping, like 1100feet/min, but not 1500 ft/minute that you can get it up to.  (AS in all case= 70-80 kts)

 

(trying to explain myself again) With the roll input first and then rudder (compared to both in simultaneously)  the slip rate is limited. The nose doesnt come back ..To get it really going, after getting into THAT configuration, I need to unravel it  and go into the slip again simultaneous controls and then it goes  .

 

It's like once it is over a fair way in the roll (first)  there is something that goes on with the wash that prevents the  nose coming back (rudder authority reduced) and the slip deepening. Admittidly these are fairly extreme drag and difficult aerodynamic configurations for an aircraft.

 

I'll play with it some more (at 3000 feet AGL and < Va and > 1.5 Vs) as time permits.

 

-glen

 

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and ! 

not to be forgotten, 

Flew in an RV6 yesterday. .. wow.....Not quite sure what the rudder pedals are for , the turns stay perfectly balanced with no rudder input at all !!, ball in the middle all the way up to steep turns. 

And that climb rate !!!! jeeeez can be in the stratosphere if a few minutes. 

Tiny bit of adverse yaw, bugger all really.

Configuring the CS prop needs a bit of thinking about. 

The PIC made a perfect landing.  Seemed almost too easy. 

 

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22 minutes ago, RFguy said:

and ! 

not to be forgotten, 

Flew in an RV6 yesterday. .. wow.....Not quite sure what the rudder pedals are for , the turns stay perfectly balanced with no rudder input at all !!, ball in the middle all the way up to steep turns. 

And that climb rate !!!! jeeeez can be in the stratosphere if a few minutes. 

Tiny bit of adverse yaw, bugger all really.

Configuring the CS prop needs a bit of thinking about. 

The PIC made a perfect landing.  Seemed almost too easy. 

 

Thankyou for the kind words Glen. The RV series are beautiful well sorted aircraft.

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A sideslip is not flown at 1.5 Vs You probably are only achieving various awkward skidding manoeuvers unless you have the speed managed very closely, and it's NOT fast. Bank the plane positively and then stop the noose falling with rudder. What you read on the airspeed may  vary with direction  you are slipping to and aircraft. You can do slipping turns in either direction and vary the turn rate (and vary track over the ground) WHEN you have mastered it and in practice (current)

  . Sideslipping well is not easy. I could count on one hand people I've seen do it well. It's an awkward  thing and easy to stuff it up. especially if you slip right to the flare. Don't forget, your controls are as crossed as they can ever be in a limit slip. THAT should make you use caution if anything does. Initially don't slip to below about 200 ft .It's more needed with flapless planes. IF you have effective flaps and use them in a well judged fashion, you won't need to slip. Get more dual instruction unless you are very sure of what you are doing. Nev

Edited by facthunter
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Hi Nev

thanks for your input. Yeah I was flying the side slip at about 1.44 Vs. ball hard over one side.  

Thanks for the suggestions. I only use it in the EP practice cases (emergency descent, and locate suitable paddock, down to about 500 feet- in most cases to generate a high descent rate base leg, before getting it out of slip configuration  , and then turn into a final to my selected paddock (which now looks a little less inviting than it did at 3000 AGL) ...

Am not skidding. You are right if not set up properly I get various amounts of direction change, not a pure slip. The direction change is useful when I want it.

You are right about side slipping well is not easy- like my description previous, there are a few different configurations in that generated various slips.  When I get it right, end up with about 1400-1500 fpm, 1.44 Vs . I expect the loads on the tail of the aircraft are quite high.  

Also, ASI plays tricks that vary with the nutty aircraft orientation ...... Not sure exactly what to beleive hence slipping it a bit faster (1.44-1.5 Vs)  than has been demonstrated to me. 

 

oh, BTW I have either 0 or 35 deg  approx of flaps selectable. nothing in between. so the flaps go out when I have assurity on the final  I will make the strip.

 

-glen

 

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You only have to worry about airframe loads IF the speed gets up. If it gets too slow your problem is loss of control. .  The highest ROD and particularly steepest approach angle are with slower speeds where you must do it far more precisely and there is less margin for error.. Do this at height but perhaps some unusual attitude recoveries (in a suitable plane, FIRST done dual with experienced aero's pilot who is not interested in scaring you or making you airsick.) Nev..

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All the bad things that people are afraid of with slipping, but the really big plus is that when things go wrong all you need to do is relax the control inputs. The nose will straighten up, the low wing will lift and you will have enough speed to be in control.

Definitely necessary if you don't have flaps. If I remember right there was a Yanky Kitplane a few years ago that didn't have flaps and the designers recommended that slipping was not a good idea. Not the sort of plane I would like to fly.

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I have been "brought up" to consider slipping a useful tool to be applied where appropriate.  As you say Yenn, relax the controls if you dont like it. same with steep turns >> spirals. relax the roll   and the power.....

 

Interestingly I have spoken to a few pilots that have NEVER used it and spent very little time ever in training on it. Maybe it depends on the instructor.

 

I reckon my instructor knows every banana skin there is. (18000+ hours) .

 

I would expect the different aircraft with different fuselage shapes to strongly influence slipping behaviour,  The Brumby I fly is boxy. I would 'expect' something smooth like a Jab fuselage to behave a little different.

Didnt do any slipping when mucking around in the Jab last weekend back.

-glen

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I at times kick in a slide slip on early after lining up on final. To maintain the skill. Settle into slip then unslip.  As when you have to loose height quick without increasing  speed you need to do it well.

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You are doing much the same when you lower the wing in a crosswind landing. In the extreme situation (limiting)  You will use all the rudder .  Especially with a highwing where you have a lot of bank angle available. Nev

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Hi Nev. true on X wind landing. wing down,  opp rudder. But with a little power applied .

Did some more X winds on sunday afternoon.

This time was pure crosswind- 90 deg to nose, 8 to 12 kts . 

That was a little different to my previous day of x winds-  15-25 kts gusty, at 45 deg to my nose.  was stormy.

 

The difference- the headwind component was not present ! 

 

so my ground speed was a bit higher on landing and touchdown energy was clearly a little higher (and the manouever became more critical) 

 

BlueAdv- that's a good idea, helps keep the practice up.  On the final, do you  put it into a 'deep slip'  (I call that when crossed controls are at maximum ) , or fairly shallow ?  All my slips to date are power off (except the last bit of a xwind landing which is as nevs says, is a crossed control- same situation however  power on-  in a power available situation) .

 

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