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If you are flight planning for an around Australia trip for 12 months. What......


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7 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

As to your interest (academic I presume or can not interest you in a purchase?)

Thanks, but no thanks....I have seen them in the flesh and they do have some very desirable features, but I deem them too fragile for my purpose.

 

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I am nearly ready 🙂  

Are the moderators able to split this thread?   I’d appreciate all the argy bargy on the ATEC aircraft being split off and leave just the touring OZ thread comments.   Thanks in ad

I rest the case,  looks very slow to me, and yes one up. But I agree that its bloody slow.     

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Now if we could move away from long discussions on the truth/believable status of the detailed performance of a particular aircraft how about back to topic ... which aircraft and what ...

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7 hours ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

The issue is if I have taken offence or not. I haven’t. I’m actually trying to do you a favour. You seem to value being right above selling aeroplanes. Given the plethora of low winged composite aircraft on the market, someone reading this forum would be nuts to buy a plane from you. I can only imagine that if I had a problem with my aircraft you would swiftly “correct an error, refute an unfounded accusation and enter into vagarous debate”. As a customer, I couldn’t imagine a more unpleasant experience.

Point taken - I should sell planes and ignore the disinformation and errors being perpetuated by others, either through ignorance or malice. 

 

Fascinating ! It would seem that you would prefer the obfuscation & hype of some sale persons.  My manor may be a little direct even abrasive, for that I apologise but at least you will get the truth and  on going enthusiastic support. 

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4 hours ago, M61A1 said:

Thanks, but no thanks....I have seen them in the flesh and they do have some very desirable features, but I deem them too fragile for my purpose.

 

Despite your apparent willingness to debate, you seem to have had an entrenched position all along - I am disappointed. Particularly as your parting negative  comment is, once again, without good foundation (in my humble opinion).

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3 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

Despite your apparent willingness to debate, you seem to have had an entrenched position all along - I am disappointed. Particularly as your parting negative  comment is, once again, without good foundation (in my humble opinion).

There are two reasons for my "entrenched position", 1

1. It's about 3-4 times more expensive than I'm willing to spend on an aircraft.

2. It has a nosewheel. (too fragile...I've seen a broken Faeta))

If those things can be fixed, count me in as interested.

All I wanted know was what it's actual load factor is at the highest certified MTOW....I think it's useful to know if you are going to load it to the hilt and set of cross country.

 I have asked the same question of several Euro aircraft and no-one seems to be able to answer.

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31 minutes ago, M61A1 said:

There are two reasons for my "entrenched position", 1

1. It's about 3-4 times more expensive than I'm willing to spend on an aircraft.

2. It has a nosewheel. (too fragile...I've seen a broken Faeta))

If those things can be fixed, count me in as interested.

All I wanted know was what it's actual load factor is at the highest certified MTOW....I think it's useful to know if you are going to load it to the hilt and set of cross country.

 I have asked the same question of several Euro aircraft and no-one seems to be able to answer.

I - Fair enough - most of us work within a budget. I am intrigued - there are aircraft out there in the $40 k-70k bracket - what are you after? - there is a nice Europa Classic (Vic) for sale at the moment I think $38,000.

2 - You have seen a broken Faeta ? (are you sure it wasn't a Zephyr?)- there are only two in AU. I stand to be corrected but the older Faeta 321 (T tail) has never had an incident and the almost new Faeta NG had a bit of a runway error (pilot induced) and I believe damaged one main undercharge (not the nose wheel). From all reports the NG's incident was a very hard landing & ground loop and under the circumstances remarkably little damage was sustained - the aircraft is back flying and better than ever. 

 

As for the last - I will try for you but must put question to the Czechs

 

There is a 2003 DynAero MCR VLA Sportster Aircraft (Wa) for auction - amazing cruise & climb out but stalls a bit high for my taste . https://www.planesales.com.au/search

 

There is a pre loved, low hours, tail wheel Faeta overseas but the cost would not meet point 1.

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actually the Faeta POH ( and any of the eastern euro planes) goes into considerable detail on loadings ,max this max that....very comprehensive, but i could only find Faeta data for Euro max weights.

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23 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

You have seen a broken Faeta ? (are you sure it wasn't a Zephyr?)

I thought for a moment you might have been correct, but I checked and it was definitely a Faeta.

I won't go into details, because it's not my place to do so, no there wasn't a lot of damage, but there shouldn't have been any.

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35 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

I - Fair enough - most of us work within a budget. I am intrigued - there are aircraft out there in the $40 k-70k bracket - what are you after? - there is a nice Europa Classic (Vic) for sale at the moment I think $38,000.

2 - You have seen a broken Faeta ? (are you sure it wasn't a Zephyr?)- there are only two in AU. I stand to be corrected but the older Faeta 321 (T tail) has never had an incident and the almost new Faeta NG had a bit of a runway error (pilot induced) and I believe damaged one main undercharge (not the nose wheel). From all reports the NG's incident was a very hard landing & ground loop and under the circumstances remarkably little damage was sustained - the aircraft is back flying and better than ever. 

 

As for the last - I will try for you but must put question to the Czechs

 

There is a 2003 DynAero MCR VLA Sportster Aircraft (Wa) for auction - amazing cruise & climb out but stalls a bit high for my taste . https://www.planesales.com.au/search

 

There is a pre loved, low hours, tail wheel Faeta overseas but the cost would not meet point 1.

The Zephyr with collapsed nose wheel was in Queensland. Should be seeing the owner tomorrow and I’ll ask about the repair.  I helped him with other matters and as he lives 2 hours away did not get to view the damage and repair.  I know he got parts from the au distributor.  That’s also why I asked some time ago about the circumstances of the damage to your Zephyr as we all learn from each other’s experiences. I still would like to hear your learnings if your happy to share. Regards Mike

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1 hour ago, Blueadventures said:

The Zephyr with collapsed nose wheel was in Queensland. Should be seeing the owner tomorrow and I’ll ask about the repair.  I helped him with other matters and as he lives 2 hours away did not get to view the damage and repair.  I know he got parts from the au distributor.  That’s also why I asked some time ago about the circumstances of the damage to your Zephyr as we all learn from each other’s experiences. I still would like to hear your learnings if your happy to share. Regards Mike

To be blunt - I was a total F--- wit ! My first accident in 30 years and it was a doozy. This is not the conversation to unload in but suffice to say pilot error all the way -Failed to do comprehensive ground survey of private dirt strip. Failed to do comprehensive areal survey of same strip. Did not follow personal plan/minimums. There were some mitigating circumstances but not sufficient to absolve me of being totaly ashamed of myself. Touched down on an earth  bank, I had not seen from he air. Aircraft, collapsed nose wheel, broke off main wheels just above axle, smashed prop, damage to left wing leading edge & both flaps - economic right off. Walked away without even a bruise from harness (touch down estimated to be 30 knots indicated with 3 knot head wind). Aircraft is rebuildable, insurance should just about cover it - have been about to start for several months now . Hope to start any day.

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6 hours ago, M61A1 said:

I thought for a moment you might have been correct, but I checked and it was definitely a Faeta.

I won't go into details, because it's not my place to do so, no there wasn't a lot of damage, but there shouldn't have been any.

Then it was the NG - I will contact the owner for details.

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20 hours ago, M61A1 said:

I thought for a moment you might have been correct, but I checked and it was definitely a Faeta.

I won't go into details, because it's not my place to do so, no there wasn't a lot of damage, but there shouldn't have been any.

Okay - some additional info:

 

  • My apologies for doubting you - yes the Faeta did collapse the nose wheel, during a ground loop and sideways slide - very few (if any) nose wheels will put up with a 90 degree side loading like this.
  • Faeta G figures - I am told that the figures you have found on the ATEC web site are for the Faeta with a fuselage tank at EU wights of 475 kg . Australian Faeta's come with 2 X 50 L wing tanks. Apparently this changes the  potential stress loadings so significantly , the original G figures have been left as is.
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19 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

To be blunt - I was a total F--- wit ! My first accident in 30 years and it was a doozy. This is not the conversation to unload in but suffice to say pilot error all the way -Failed to do comprehensive ground survey of private dirt strip. Failed to do comprehensive areal survey of same strip. Did not follow personal plan/minimums. There were some mitigating circumstances but not sufficient to absolve me of being totaly ashamed of myself. Touched down on an earth  bank, I had not seen from he air. Aircraft, collapsed nose wheel, broke off main wheels just above axle, smashed prop, damage to left wing leading edge & both flaps - economic right off. Walked away without even a bruise from harness (touch down estimated to be 30 knots indicated with 3 knot head wind). Aircraft is rebuildable, insurance should just about cover it - have been about to start for several months now . Hope to start any day.

Good to see an honest post like this. We all get a bit loose now and again, and it reminds us to bring ourselves back up to standard.

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My preference for a LSA tourer would be a Brumby in conventional configuration (taildragger). Metal, tough, tough, and easily repairable and lots of room inside. 

 

Having crossed over to VH now, I  think I'd struggle with a 600kg MTOW  these days, but if I had to, the Brumby would let me use every kilogram. The J230 is a great aircraft with awesome cruise but for my tour I'd want to be dropping into out of the way places and rough strips, where the Brumby would perform better.

 

Alan

 

 

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the Brumby aerofoil certainly stops flying when you want it to (I have 60 h in Brumby 610) .

(making landing on short strips a bit easier, I guess )

(ie less tendency to float  at low airspeeds like the Jabiru big wing (I have a few hours in J170C- same wing at J230C) ,

 

 

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On 05/12/2020 at 7:58 AM, skippydiesel said:

Point taken - I should sell planes and ignore the disinformation and errors being perpetuated by others, either through ignorance or malice. 

 

Fascinating ! It would seem that you would prefer the obfuscation & hype of some sale persons.  My manor may be a little direct even abrasive, for that I apologise but at least you will get the truth and  on going enthusiastic support. 

That’s a straw man argument: not the kind of thing that someone who prides themselves on debating and searching for truth should engage in. It goes without saying that if you call someone hairy chested, you are doing the opposite of trying to find the truth. 
 

It would be best, in a conversational or sales context, to find and amplify any truth in what someone says. By doing that, you have more opportunity to lean, and the person who you are talking with will be more likely to listen to anything you say that is true. 
 

For example, if someone says that 27 kt is unrealistically slow, then you might acknowledge that indicated speed can be inaccurate, 16 degree angle of attack might make a difference to the reading, and that you were at 4000 rpm and 100 kg below max weight where as official figures are at max weight and closed throttle. You can say that you don’t blame them for being cynical because there is a long history of fibbing. Then you can go out and video yourself measuring speed by GPS in two directions. You could check the stall speed closed throttle at max weight and see if it was the same as book after all. 
 

How many aircraft have you actually sold? 
 

 

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I take it you have been ordained by some higher authority that authorises you to lecture to others - I say it how I read/find it -  t like or not, that is your prerogative.

 

You on the other hand appear to prefer/advise the "silver tonged"  approach - may that philosophy serve you well - I have no intention of adopting it

 

Those in glass houses should not throw stones - you may like to review your recent  passive aggressive language  and non to subtle accusations, that you feel so free to launch at me - "cast out first the beam out of thine own eye;"

 

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37 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

I take it you have been ordained by some higher authority that authorises you to lecture to others - I say it how I read/find it -  t like or not, that is your prerogative.

 

You on the other hand appear to prefer/advise the "silver tonged"  approach - may that philosophy serve you well - I have no intention of adopting it

 

Those in glass houses should not throw stones - you may like to review your recent  passive aggressive language  and non to subtle accusations, that you feel so free to launch at me - "cast out first the beam out of thine own eye;"

 

Yeah, but how many aeroplanes have you sold? 

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21 minutes ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

Yeah, but how many aeroplanes have you sold? 

He doesn't have to supply commercil in confidence information. He's one of the few suppliers that puts up with some of the crap dished out here.

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I have little doubt that Faeta are excellent aircraft. They look great and so they probably fly great too. We all know the Czechs build good small aircraft.

 

But the  specific question is whether one would make the best touring aircraft for a lap?  My personal feeling is that aircraft with bubble canopies are just not climate appropriate in northern Australia. Unless you want to wear a hat and sun cream all way round... Perhaps there is a tropical model with a opaque canopy?  Also  I would always favour high wing  and tail dragger for the bush and rough strips.  Thats not to say that low wing trikes are inferior. We are discussing a very specific mission here.

 

Alan

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19 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

He doesn't have to supply commercil in confidence information. He's one of the few suppliers that puts up with some of the crap dished out here.

And probably the only supplier who dishes it out. He said that I recommended a silver-tongued approach, again deliberately misrepresenting what I said. What I said was that he could be more polite *and* better promote truth. Promoting truth is the opposite of being silver tongued. 
 

He also accused me being a hypocrite. It is true that I recommend politeness and am rude. However, I don’t recommend that he be polite to be more moral. I recommend that he be polite so he can sell some aeroplanes. 


If to be a supplier one needs to supply someone with something, Skippy might not be an aeroplane supplier at all. 
 

I’m sure he feels better now you have put me in my place. 

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8 minutes ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

And probably the only supplier who dishes it out. He said that I recommended a silver-tongued approach, again deliberately misrepresenting what I said. What I said was that he could be more polite *and* better promote truth. Promoting truth is the opposite of being silver tongued. 
 

He also accused me being a hypocrite. It is true that I recommend politeness and am rude. However, I don’t recommend that he be polite to be more moral. I recommend that he be polite so he can sell some aeroplanes. 


If to be a supplier one needs to supply someone with something, Skippy might not be an aeroplane supplier at all. 
 

I’m sure he feels better now you have put me in my place. 

Any marketer is entitled to use any marketing policy they want to use;  the most compelling policy I've seen is where someone walks up to you, holds a 357 magnum to your ear and says "Give me your money" Works every time.

 

This thread is about flight planning for an around Australia trip of 12 months.

 

 

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