Lowering Class E between Melbourne and Cairns

[RFguy]

just get a Mode A/C transponder and run in Mode A only . No need to have it the altitude encoder calibrated etc.  No biggie.   Once a year, just ask Centre to  do a transponder check and they'll tell you to IDENT and you'll know, or not if there is a problem with it.

[jackc]

I just wish the regulators would make a structured plan, right now confusion reigns and it’s getting worse.  Soon they will want us not above 1000ft and use road maps instead of charts.

[walrus]

1. RPT aircraft have TCAS, they don’t use ADSB -IN 

 

2 ADSB is for airservices and GA..

 

3. The cost of a certified GPS input for ADSB is at least $3000 and it’s an extra box that does eff all. My Dynon skyview has an $850 gps available that satisfies the FAA but not CASA! As for EC devices, I have a horror of little boxes, iPads and wires all over the cockpit. If the weather gets bumpy you can count on any such junk to end up in a tangled mess under your rudder pedals.

[jackc]

6 minutes ago, walrus said:

1. RPT aircraft have TCAS, they don’t use ADSB -IN 

 

2 ADSB is for airservices and GA..

 

3. The cost of a certified GPS input for ADSB is at least $3000 and it’s an extra box that does eff all. My Dynon skyview has an $850 gps available that satisfies the FAA but not CASA! As for EC devices, I have a horror of little boxes, iPads and wires all over the cockpit. If the weather gets bumpy you can count on any such junk to end up in a tangled mess under your rudder pedals.

In other words you dump all this junk and simply fly looking outside all the time and use your radio and charts to navigate?

[Kyle Communications]

The SE2 needs to have a external antenna connection..this will greatly increase your see and be seen position. The GPS can still be inside the SE2 and mounted in the cockpit as it will get well enough GPS signal. 20watts into a external antenna mounted on the outside of the aircraft will dramatically improve its local performance

 

 

[jackc]

15 minutes ago, Kyle Communications said:

The SE2 needs to have a external antenna connection..this will greatly increase your see and be seen position. The GPS can still be inside the SE2 and mounted in the cockpit as it will get well enough GPS signal. 20watts into a external antenna mounted on the outside of the aircraft will dramatically improve its local performance

 

 

Whilst this is an good advancement,  not knowing how many ADSB units are in service and placing too much faith in them is the worrying part.

Is it wise to go mode C or mode S?  Where is the best place to put your transponder ‘money’ 
IF all aircraft had ADSB, then no problem and the SE2 is a great device but placing blind faith in it may give a false sense of security.

I won’t suggest that a device like this be mandated because many may not see the cost benefit, particularly those doing laps around the farm in their Drifter etc.

Right now I am in Transponder no man’s land 🙂

 

[Kyle Communications]

Airservices and CASA know exactly how many are out...its pretty much no good if you dont get your hex code from CASA of course. So you are "on the system" and id'd. Even when running a EC device you realistically will pop up on the air services system but more likely you will come up on FlightAware and FR24..this data is pushed to most of the EFB anyway. Its a far better system than mode A or C

 

 

[RFguy]

1 hour ago, walrus said:

1. RPT aircraft have TCAS, they don’t use ADSB -IN 

 

2 ADSB is for airservices and GA..

 

3. The cost of a certified GPS input for ADSB is at least $3000 and it’s an extra box that does eff all. My Dynon skyview has an $850 gps available that satisfies the FAA but not CASA! As for EC devices, I have a horror of little boxes, iPads and wires all over the cockpit. If the weather gets bumpy you can count on any such junk to end up in a tangled mess under your rudder pedals.

Walrus,  I do NOT agree with your posts 

'2 ADSB is for airservices and GA.."  total BS ! if you are flying around in your RA plane , the SYSTEM DOES NOT CARE WHAT YOUR AIRCRAFT REGISTRATION IS .

and

tell about your information that RPT do not have ADSB-IN, and consider than its mostly gone in in the last 3 years ? Is your information up to date ? 

 

It's not about a certified GPS necessarily,  it high SIL requirements include whole device  software and hardware design reveiews

 

Edited January 23, 2021 by RFguy

[RFguy]

Jack, you asked "Is it wise to go mode C or mode S?  Where is the best place to put your transponder ‘money’ "
I thank the member for Rockhampton for his question.

 

For RA planes, plane old vanilla Mode S is not much of an upgrade on Mode C.  (Mode A has no altitude transmitted) 
Mode S has many SYSTEM benefits which assists the ATC to hearing and seeing more aircraft 
Mode S also as a messaging system - data transfers can occur from air to ground and ground to air, but that's not  used TMK for GA, and certainly not RA.
Mode S-ES - is an ADSB-out. So you could have your Skyview on ADSB-IN for map display, and use yoru Garmin GTX335 for ADSB-OUT with its 200W TX power and SIL>=2 benefits if you need IFR clearances .
Then, there is ModeS-ES  + ADSB-IN in the same box.....sort of a skyview integration for receiving- this is usually integrated into the airplane pilot interaction displays and maps. 

Might you be more likely to get a clearance in busy airspace with an SIL>=2 ModeS-ES (ADSB-OUT)  box ? maybe. I have no idea.

But  the controller is not going to get any more information from the SKyview ADSB-OUT + your Mode C than he  she is from a fancy box, except the fancy box is  ATC surveilance grade....

 

Mark what do you think ?
 

Edited January 23, 2021 by RFguy

[Garfly]

54 minutes ago, jackc said:

IF all aircraft had ADSB, then no problem and the SE2 is a great device but placing blind faith in it may give a false sense of security.

🙂

 

Jack, I reckon the amount of faith we place in SkyEcho type devices is yet to be worked out. Time will tell.  And blind faith in any technology is never good.

But the main concern here is will it be legal to climb above 1500AGL in large parts of the east coast without such a device ... or better. 

[Garfly]

2 hours ago, walrus said:

1. RPT aircraft have TCAS, they don’t use ADSB -IN 

 

2 ADSB is for airservices and GA..

 

3. // ,,,,, As for EC devices, I have a horror of little boxes, iPads and wires all over the cockpit. If the weather gets bumpy you can count on any such junk to end up in a tangled mess under your rudder pedals.

Walrus, regarding your #3: 

 

The weather can be bumpier below 1500' so we might just have to get used to one more little box.  If it's any comfort, the SkyEcho is a standalone unit that needs no wires or connections to work. (Unless you want to go for Mark's special external antenna mod.)

 

And regarding your #1 & #2:

 

That's not correct anymore, as CDTI tech proliferates.  But I'm very keen to know just which RPT aircraft - in the here and now - actually have what kind of gear.

 

This paper is from March 2005:

https://www.icao.int/Meetings/AMC/MA/2005/ADSB_ADSB_TF3/ip10.pdf

 

excerpt:

1.1 Airservices Australia’s Research and Development Team is involved in a number of projects aimed at encouraging the development of ADS-B avionics for regional aircraft and the general aviation (GA) community.

1.2 In addition to providing surveillance for air traffic control (ATC), ADS-B also supports airborne applications such as enhanced traffic situational awareness through the display of other aircraft to pilots and flight crew.

1.3 Cockpit Display of Traffic Information (CDTI) is a key element of the proposed Australian ADS-B Lower Airspace Program currently under consideration by the country’s aviation industry.

 

 

And then there's this interesting Pprune post from a few months back.

Keep in mind that the SkyEcho is a SIL=1 device. These pics show exactly how our aircraft should show up on one type of RPT Nav display screen.

 

 

https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/636347-a400-vs-gliders.html?highlight=CDTI25th Oct 2020, 22:22

  #3 (permalink)  

The B Word

25TH Oct 2020

 

As the A400M is an Airbus aircraft then if ATSAW is embodied then it will detect and display ADS-B only traffic as long as SIL=1+ and SDA=1+.

Here is what the ATSAW symbology looks like:







The same goes for Voyager too - with ATSAW embodied and enabled then it could see a glider if it is emitting SIL=1+ and SDA=1+ ADS-B. This is what Airbus say about ATSAW for the A330:
 

Quote:

Airborne Traffic Situational Awareness (ATSAW), took advantage of Automatic Dependent Surveillance- Broadcast (ADS-B) by displaying aircraft information. It enhances the flight crew’s knowledge of their surrounding air traffic situation, contributing to fuel savings by identifying the opportunity to climb and optimizing the flight level. In approach ATSAW increases runway throughput by improving identification and information of target aircraft and decreasing pilot workload. ATSAW was certified in 2011.

 

 

Edited January 23, 2021 by Garfly

[Kyle Communications]

The SE2 lets Airservices know where you are and what height and speed...realistically thats all they care about

TCAS is only aircraft to aircraft so as far as they are concered its up to the pilots in that mode

 

 

[RFguy]

ADSB IN  (from an EC with SIL >=1 like a skyecho  ) even without TCAS will appear on the pilot interactive display on an RPT

[Garfly]

Plus, they know who you are. (For better and for worse.  ;- )

 

But so, also, should RPT (and other CDTI equipped aircraft). This is a real plus; we can easily call each other up on the radio using our correct identifiers.  RAAus targets show up as R5001, for example, if the rego is 19-5001  (or 24- et al).

Edited January 23, 2021 by Garfly

[Kyle Communications]

I think the SE2 is a fantastic value for money for what it does...as I said to be even far better than it is now a extenal antenna connection would improve it out of sight

 

[RFguy]

Agreed on utility of an external antenna.

For distances that are optical  line of site up to 10nm should work reliably between aircraft  even if the antenna radiation pattern is compromised to say -6dB.   20nm is about the limit  between aircraft  for good 0dBi antennas.

 

ATC SSR (if equipped on the dish) should see them >200nm if optical line of sight . depends where they have their minimum signal threshold set.
 

The 200W  ModeS-ES units will give you 3x the range, plus a bit more because they have known antennas on the hull . 

 

A well equipped high gain omni base station antenna with a $25 receiver should be good for 200nm if line of sight. 

Sometime Mark, I will put mine onto a test range and see just how non omnidirectional it is.  A metal aircraft will turn the radiation pattern into a bit of a 20 leaf clover.  But if it is regularly spitting bursts, one will get through....

 

[Kyle Communications]

Most put their transponder antenna under the aircraft...where in my opinion all antennas should be for aircraft at 10,000 ft or below anyway...but being so small the TR antenna can go dead centre of any large flat area which should even out the pattern a bit more. My VHF was under the nose of the sav and so was my UHF...you dont want to talk to the jet jocks at FL30  you talk to us plebs below FL10

 

[jackc]

For me, whatever transponder is used I would need a local internal display like the traffic warning units.  I won’t ever have a class cockpit, for one I don’t like them and two I don’t have much panel real estate to work with anyway.

my only choice is to have a very small display with basic information, if at all possible.

[Kyle Communications]

The ADSB will come up on your Ipad overlayed on what ever program you use ....if you use one Jack

 

 

[jackc]

As Mark has said, the SE2 seems to be a good answer for the future and even more useful with his antenna mod.  A real nice, but not possible extra would be IF you could incorporate your current radio frequency being encoded in the ADSB out data stream (a never happen dream)

I would need to figure out the most basic screen display for the unit,  be nice if it worked into a Garmin Aera 660?

[RFguy]

Jack there is a standard for this sort of interconnect stuff which Skyecho provides for ... read up, it might do it.

 

[Old Koreelah]

4 hours ago, Kyle Communications said:

Most put their transponder antenna under the aircraft...where in my opinion all antennas should be...

 

I know of one which cops a caning from the vegetation on landing.

 

[Kyle Communications]

Well of course you need enough clearance under the aircraft..the VHF and UHF on mine were about 300 back from the firwall on the floor...plenty of clearance

 

[pmccarthy]

The discussion seems all about transponderish things, are there any other consequences of class E?

[horsefeathers]

Well, it seems no transponder ,no Class E flying.

Bloody ridiculous proposal.

 

I understand Michael Monk is putting a submission together, and would be grateful for feedback from RAA pilots as to how this proposal will affect them.