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5 minutes ago, onetrack said:

Rick, are those figures the final bid prices, or the total sale prices, with buyers premium included? The BP adds a hefty amount to the bid price.

Thats the final bid including GST, the 8.5% and payment fee is on top of that. 

The Tecnams went for $110K - $126k 

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Pickles technique is all about maximising the return to them and the vendor. They set a figure they believe the item is worth (often way out, because their valuers are not that expert), and they call

Receivers don't nessasarily accept the best price on an asset more the most convenient offer.   I can recall when great southern plantations managed investment scheme collapsed. Prime grazin

All too expensive from my way of thinking & the 8.25% buyers premium adds a hefty margin. Tecnam for 136k plus 11.2k premium, total 147.2k. Not for an ex flying school aircraft 1/2 way through the

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47 minutes ago, Panorama said:

The foxbat was at 62k near the end, one of the tecnam p2008 was at 134k, plus the additional 8.25% mentioned above.

Wow that's really strong money for aircraft that have been punished in the training circuit. I guess they have been maintained (because SOAR obviously did everything  by the book), but still...

 

Perhaps people think they're getting a better bargain at an auction,  but is that really true?

 

Alan

 

 

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51 minutes ago, NT5224 said:

Wow that's really strong money for aircraft that have been punished in the training circuit. I guess they have been maintained (because SOAR obviously did everything  by the book), but still...

 

Perhaps people think they're getting a better bargain at an auction,  but is that really true?

 

Alan

 

 

A "bargain" is very much a subjective concept  ie if the buyer is happy, he thinks he got a bargain HOWEVER i would suggest a more realistic approach - the price you pay should include ALL possible replace/repair eventualities. Only then will you be able to look back(passage of time) and say your purchase price was/not a bargain.

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As a rule you don't want to be flying a plane of any type which has the highest hours OR been subject to higher stresses than the usual.. Realistically, How long some of these airframes last is an open question. Things like say the C-150, C- 152 lasted longer than most expected.. Chipmunks had a centre  section  wing spar lifed at 4,000 hours under aerobatic conditions.  and they are a substantially built aircraft.  Though I've seen one break in half behind the rear cockpit with a firm  ground contact. Nev

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On 23/03/2021 at 11:04 AM, NT5224 said:

that's really strong money for aircraft that have been punished in the training circuit

 

The common perception is that training aircraft will have been subjected to all manner of mishandling with resulting probable airframe damage. This isn't necessarily so, but is certainly possible. Given the combination of student urgency to progress, low hours/experience instructors, pressure in circuit training, (eg, higher approach speeds and touchdowns due traffic), and a lack of what I'd call   'ownership care'  with these major airport located aircraft - I believe you'd be buying some future costs. I understand they were not all hangared.   Who knows whether every out-of-usual incident, eg, a heavy landing, is being reported?  My experience says that junior instructors are loathe to do this because it marks them out as  'higher cost' staff.

 

Where the aircraft is located with a smaller school, with the owner also the CFI, and only instructor, I believe the aircraft will be much more likely to be more gently operated, probably always hangared,  kept clean and with a coat of polish. I'd go so far as to say that experienced CFI/owners don't subscribe to allowing students to shrug off heavy landings or unsafe approaches, and they certainly don't do manoeuvres which are not allowed as per the POH.

 

The reason these aircraft will sell is that the industry is suffering from a shortage of used stock, finance is cheap, tax depreciation is attractive, and there is an increased demand for flying training due probably to no overseas travel.

 

happy days,

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I reckon that is a pretty good summary. The log book should show the number of landings. A privately owned aircraft is likely to have a much smaller number of landings than an ex trainer. Heavy landings is pretty subjective and one pilot will call a heavy landing solid or strong while another will consider it just short of a crash. Whatever, the stress on the airframe is certain to be greater than the average privately owned aircraft with similar hours.

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As I said erlier its not just landing wear/damage, its every other component that moves and is subject to wear from use.

 

Every time a student gets into the aircraft he/she, opens & closes the canopy/door, compresses & moves the seat, clips on the belts, switches on the master to energies the radio to obtain ATIS/clearance, does the controls correct and so on  - this could be 8 times a day and it hasn't even started yet.  Then you start to think about multiple/day start up, taxi, run ups, the circuit cycles, engine heating/cooling, landings, side loads, brakes, on & on 

 

Compare that with the typical private aircraft - probably averages out as 24 times a year (max) 

 

A school aircraft, that has any age on it, probably has more wear/tear in 12 months of active duty than the average private aircraft will get in several "lifetimes" - if you dont get one for a very very favorable price, you will probably regret the purchase down the track.

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An "Airframe life" for most of this stuff is gained by experience in service of the the type.

    Even the Dassault Mirage had not had any definitive fatigue tests done on the airframe before they were done properly in Australia..

  Controls free is an unloaded test but everything wears. Door catches cowl clips  seat adjustment rails (Cessna) Windows scratch and crack. In thin Al sheet star cracks from rivet locations. Centre sections spars need inspection. Hangar rash is usually not recorded, unless it's very obvious and often superficially repaired without proper investigation for "hidden" damage..

  An aircraft structure is of necessity, light and  is potentially subject to loads that can actually break it apart. (Turbulence at high speeds.) An aeroplane is it's strongest when it's first built unless it's modified to beef it up at some critical part.. Fatigue and deterioration starts from the first day it's used. They ALL have a practical FINITE life, much depending on the particular circumstances it's subject to..  Who would really know what it is and there are lot's of variables. Nev.

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3 hours ago, KRviator said:

What did those Tecnam Twins end up going for? Anyone know?

I think one went for around the $500k mark, there was a bidder from India bidding hard. 

Edited by PommyRick
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  • 3 weeks later...

Pickles ad on Facebook today. Only three Bristells remaining. Auction finishes 19 April. 53 sold.

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They sent an email looking for offers a few weeks ago for these last three Bristell. But with 1700/1800 hours,

they are pretty high.

 

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11 minutes ago, PommyRick said:

They sent an email looking for offers a few weeks ago for these last three Bristell. But with 1700/1800 hours,

they are pretty high.

 

Max $20K each and you might have some change left over to repair/replace all those little  & not so little parts as they "give up the ghost"

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  • 4 weeks later...

Few years ago, went to a car auction....all the good prospects quickly snapped up by dealers...leaving dodgies for the average punter on a budget. Prices here are pretty high? Never mind opening panels, are the logbooks available for inspection? Of course that does depend on how well the logbook was kept.....like I said, buyer beware!

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1 hour ago, pmccarthy said:

Some brave bidding there for ex-school planes.

 

Illustrates just how the COVID lock-in, (to Australia), has created a pool of money for use in pursuits such as recreational flying, bush-bashing by 4WD,  caravanning, and also for property in the country/coast. ($68b ?). With the Feds now talking mid 2022 before international travel begins, it looks like the boom will continue.   

 

In 15 years, I have never had so many student prospects booking TIFs, and so many beginning their RPC training.  If it wasn't for the fact that I'm nearing/probably at, the end of my instructing career, I'd be looking for another junior instructor.  Once seeding is finished, and with no overseas travel prospects, the demand is likely to increase. 

 

Interestingly, not one of my 8 'new' students, (in 2021), is heading towards a flying career - all are simply recreational or private/business use. Smart students, because it will take many years for the industry to absorb the thousands of airline/charter professionals who are currently out of a job.

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11 minutes ago, poteroo said:

 

Illustrates just how the COVID lock-in, (to Australia), has created a pool of money for use in pursuits such as recreational flying, bush-bashing by 4WD,  caravanning, and also for property in the country/coast. ($68b ?). With the Feds now talking mid 2022 before international travel begins, it looks like the boom will continue.   

 

In 15 years, I have never had so many student prospects booking TIFs, and so many beginning their RPC training.  If it wasn't for the fact that I'm nearing/probably at, the end of my instructing career, I'd be looking for another junior instructor.  Once seeding is finished, and with no overseas travel prospects, the demand is likely to increase. 

 

Interestingly, not one of my 8 'new' students, (in 2021), is heading towards a flying career - all are simply recreational or private/business use. Smart students, because it will take many years for the industry to absorb the thousands of airline/charter professionals who are currently out of a job.

As RAA flying school hourly rates skyrocket, seen $320 per hour recently.......flying schools buying expensive aircraft to impress potential students. The principle of RAA is fast disappearing as a reasonable cost route into Aviation.

Bring on Foundation Aviation FAR Part 103 no rego, no licence, low cost fun flying 🙂.  In this case we have to copy the U.S. 

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