turboplanner Posted April 18, 2021 Share Posted April 18, 2021 3 minutes ago, octave said: All vehicles rack up CO2 being built no matter what they are powered by. In addition petrol and diesel fuel racks up CO2 in its extraction, shipping overseas, refining and delivery to service stations. We know the negative effects of burning fuel not just CO2 but other pollutants which are unhealthy. Yes Octave, I was talking about CO2 emissions over and above the ICE materials and build; it was direct one on one comparisons within the industry which started the doubt about the EV crusade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onetrack Posted April 18, 2021 Share Posted April 18, 2021 Quote Problem is currently no one has to stop work for a couple of hours to do a battery swap now; Nissan Leaf Battery life is around 10 years, replacement set costs around $9500 every 10 years, and labour to do the swap is around $900.00 so a battery swap in the middle of the day is not on. There's simply no need to take 2 hrs to do a battery swap. Proper designing would see a slide-in battery cradle and a swap done in less time than it takes to put 80 litres of diesel into your Landcruiser. And the changeover cost for a Nissan Leaf battery might be $9500 from the Nissan dealer at present - but a little competition will soon see that drop to around $2000-3000. I've currently got a Ford Ranger diesel in the Ford dealer getting fixed (it wouldn't start). The dealer advised the injectors would probably need replacing, and the high pressure pump for the common rail could also need replacement. They quoted me $800 for each genuine Ford injector, and $3000 for a new genuine Ford HP pump. Yet, I can obtain genuine Bosch injectors for under $400 each, and a genuine Bosch HP pump for $975 - fitted. And Bosch make the injectors and pumps for Ford. The rorting is from when the components arrive in a Ford-branded box. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aro Posted April 18, 2021 Share Posted April 18, 2021 58 minutes ago, facthunter said: Look I can't follow your logic at this juncture A reasonable estimate is that a single pump can deliver enough fuel in 1 hour across multiple vehicles to drive 5000 km in total. How much power do you need to provide enough electricity in 1 hour to drive 5000 km? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacesailor Posted April 18, 2021 Share Posted April 18, 2021 " . Sydney had the biggest tram network in the world until NRMA lobbied the government to rip it all up..." Sydney is going Back, Along with Parramatta, to Tram's . BUT They will name them trains, " light rail ". Sheeet by any other name !. We havenot seen any " wires " yet !. SO, maybe t's the " Magical Tram Train " without those Ugly overhead wires, Like the American's " third rail trains ". spacesailor 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackc Posted April 18, 2021 Share Posted April 18, 2021 I have a Fiat Punto turbo diesel that gives 1000km on 45 litres of diesel. Don’t think I will ever get to own an EV....... An Aerolite 103 electric? That could be another story 🙂 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted April 18, 2021 Share Posted April 18, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, onetrack said: There's simply no need to take 2 hrs to do a battery swap. Proper designing would see a slide-in battery cradle and a swap done in less time than it takes to put 80 litres of diesel into your Landcruiser. And the changeover cost for a Nissan Leaf battery might be $9500 from the Nissan dealer at present - but a little competition will soon see that drop to around $2000-3000. I've currently got a Ford Ranger diesel in the Ford dealer getting fixed (it wouldn't start). The dealer advised the injectors would probably need replacing, and the high pressure pump for the common rail could also need replacement. They quoted me $800 for each genuine Ford injector, and $3000 for a new genuine Ford HP pump. Yet, I can obtain genuine Bosch injectors for under $400 each, and a genuine Bosch HP pump for $975 - fitted. And Bosch make the injectors and pumps for Ford. The rorting is from when the components arrive in a Ford-branded box. I haven't looked at the battery modules in a Nissan Leaf, but it's a good example because battery replacement cost is readily available. The latest cost I've seen is $9,990.00 for a battery pack about every 10 years plus changover at $510 = $10.500.00 to factor in to total cost of life. I would guess that allows for about 4 hours labour. I understand what you are saying about a battery rack, but EVs have a lot more battery space than a single rack would allow, and my guess is that a lot more is going on if it takes 4 hours to replace them. I think you can forget about the analogy with the gas bottle for this reason, let alone the financial consideration of "your" $9,990 worth of batteries. As you say, there wold inevitably be an aftermarket, but the life cycle pattern and management will be different to ICE. If you transfer the today's battery scenario over to an aircraft, and you want to fly cross country, you wold be looking at a pattern of doing your trip, then staying overnight for a full charge, then returning. I quoted 20 hours for a full charge, here are some accurate figures for the Tesla S 3.7 kW charge: 27 hours (This is the typical home wall pack for top up charging overnight) 7 kW charge: 15 hours 2 kW charge: 4 hours For any serious range use the cost to buy and wire a home unit is around $7,500.00 and there is a limit on the number of these chargers in a street. If everyone wanted fast chargers the entire street system back to the transformer has to be upgraded, and the end result we found out during the last Federal election was that if Labor had achieved a 50% market share of EV, we would have had to build around double our current number of power stations. Edited April 18, 2021 by turboplanner 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
octave Posted April 18, 2021 Share Posted April 18, 2021 New Batteries for Old EVs : 150% more range for a Nissan LEAF | FULLY CHARGED 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aro Posted April 18, 2021 Share Posted April 18, 2021 12 minutes ago, turboplanner said: I think you can forget about the analogy with the gas bottle for this reason There was a startup called Better Place trying to build a network of battery swap stations for EVs. It relied on standardized batteries accessible from under the car. In order to access the battery switch station, Better Place customers would have to swipe their membership card. The remaining process was fully automated, similar to going through a car wash, so the driver never had to leave the car The car owner wouldn't own the batteries, they just purchased the electricity. So all the problems with battery degradation etc. would be managed by Better Place across their whole inventory rather than being a risk to the car owner. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Place_(company) Hard to know whether its a better or worse idea than charging stations. Their biggest problem appears to have been no-one driving electric cars at that time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
octave Posted April 18, 2021 Share Posted April 18, 2021 this is being done by Nio in China This Chinese EV company swaps batteries instead of waiting for them to charge 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted April 18, 2021 Share Posted April 18, 2021 8 hours ago, aro said: There was a startup called Better Place trying to build a network of battery swap stations for EVs. It relied on standardized batteries accessible from under the car. In order to access the battery switch station, Better Place customers would have to swipe their membership card. The remaining process was fully automated, similar to going through a car wash, so the driver never had to leave the car The car owner wouldn't own the batteries, they just purchased the electricity. So all the problems with battery degradation etc. would be managed by Better Place across their whole inventory rather than being a risk to the car owner. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Place_(company) Hard to know whether its a better or worse idea than charging stations. Their biggest problem appears to have been no-one driving electric cars at that time. The theory is good because it would allow banks of batteries to be charged at their charging time, and swapped into vehicles that pulled in for their trip interval time, so in theory you could drive from Melbourne to Brisbane without any range issues. To achieve it would require an Australian Standard battery pack, and that's where the problem comes, because EVs are in the embryo phase where massive design changes are being introduced for many reasons. In the manufacturing process you have the trial vehicles, first production vehicles, then continuous changes to fix issues, improve the product (called break points). it gets so complex that we used to have parts interpreters employed to find the correct replacement part for the particular break point vehicle. The State Registration Authorities now release their data to manufacturers, so all the parts counter person has to do is get your registration number and the VIN is captured, break point identified, correct part supplied. This would be one of the sticking points to a battery standard at this early stage. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danny_galaga Posted April 18, 2021 Share Posted April 18, 2021 I have a bet with a workmate that in ten years you won't be able to buy a new ICE car. My main argument is that Australia has no bearing on what the rest of the world is manufacturing (gee, maybe canning all car manufacturing here wasnt so great an idea). 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted April 18, 2021 Share Posted April 18, 2021 22 minutes ago, danny_galaga said: I have a bet with a workmate that in ten years you won't be able to buy a new ICE car. My main argument is that Australia has no bearing on what the rest of the world is manufacturing (gee, maybe canning all car manufacturing here wasnt so great an idea). Since we import most of our cars from the northern hemisphere that could well come true. The problem for Australia is that unless a battery/range breakthrough occurs that would spell disaster for regional Australia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackc Posted April 18, 2021 Share Posted April 18, 2021 Probably never tow a boat, trailer or caravan either...... EVs will only ever work for city commuting........never enough charging points in cities.......queue up for a charge and if the power grid goes down......walk home. EVs are not workable in Australia to the level everyone hopes for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted April 19, 2021 Share Posted April 19, 2021 If the power goes off you don't get ordinary fuels either. Those old hand pumps are long gone. Your swipe cards don't work either. When you could get and use electric floor heat it was at a rate far higher than any of those chargers do . Why do knockers of electric vehicles mention coalfired power so much? The best nuclear power is from the sun By utilising it you don't ADD any heat to what would have been the case if you did nothing. A hybrid would use the brakes energy , be able to pass quicker and go a short distance without starting the engine. Why not have it in Vans where there's plenty of room underfloor? .Nev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobody Posted April 19, 2021 Share Posted April 19, 2021 (edited) Tesla had a battery swap station in California and the Model S(in 2013) is designed to swap batteries. I think that they have stopped offering them in the newer cars because most people didn't bother... The super charger was good enough.... Edited April 19, 2021 by Nobody Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackc Posted April 19, 2021 Share Posted April 19, 2021 1 hour ago, facthunter said: If the power goes off you don't get ordinary fuels either. Those old hand pumps are long gone. Your swipe cards don't work either. When you could get and use electric floor heat it was at a rate far higher than any of those chargers do . Why do knockers of electric vehicles mention coalfired power so much? The best nuclear power is from the sun By utilising it you don't ADD any heat to what would have been the case if you did nothing. A hybrid would use the brakes energy , be able to pass quicker and go a short distance without starting the engine. Why not have it in Vans where there's plenty of room underfloor? .Nev EVs have a good fit for many purposes, not all unfortunately. If you live in rural Australia EVs are not viable for many. We had a Cyclone here a few years back, no grid power for 11 days. So, the Jenny ran 24/7 for the time on the fuel kept here, my 3 diesel cars have 1000km range each on their fuel tanks. I am not like most dense city people who drive everywhere with their guage needle nudging empty 🙂. Be a laugh trying to run farm machinery on electric.....oh hang on, Stihl make an electric chainsaw 🙂. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onetrack Posted April 19, 2021 Share Posted April 19, 2021 A sizeable % of small power tools are now Li-ion powered. And your EV has the potential to provide a useable electric power source when you're not driving. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted April 19, 2021 Share Posted April 19, 2021 Jack C, You are quite correct at this point of time. Fuel for early Infernal combustion engines was from whale oil. A vehicle with no fuel in is as bad as having none if you need it quickly.. People wo have fuel low in their cars must "Think"? It uses less or something. I wonder how long they would last in the primeval Jungles of the past? Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted April 19, 2021 Share Posted April 19, 2021 WE currently only have about 3 weeks of fuel in reserve to nothing. How CLEVER is THAT? Don't bother stocking up. Someone will just kill you for your tankful. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danny_galaga Posted April 19, 2021 Share Posted April 19, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, facthunter said: If the power goes off you don't get ordinary fuels either. Those old hand pumps are long gone. Your swipe cards don't work either. When you could get and use electric floor heat it was at a rate far higher than any of those chargers do . Why do knockers of electric vehicles mention coalfired power so much? The best nuclear power is from the sun By utilising it you don't ADD any heat to what would have been the case if you did nothing. A hybrid would use the brakes energy , be able to pass quicker and go a short distance without starting the engine. Why not have it in Vans where there's plenty of room underfloor? .Nev Yes, the coal power Furphy that the Sky News crowd trot out all the time. They miss The point that electrical is the ultimate 'hybrid' because you can get that power myriad ways. There's only going to be less coal power in Australia in the future. Not sure why Jones/Bolt have such a hard on for it. Good buddies in the right places maybe? I'm sure their equivalents kept espousing the virtues of horse drawn transport or smoking long past their used by dates I must admit I'm surprised there aren't more/any hybrid vans. A lot of vans are City use. Lots of stop start is the best use of electric power. Edited April 19, 2021 by danny_galaga 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackc Posted April 19, 2021 Share Posted April 19, 2021 (edited) 18 minutes ago, facthunter said: WE currently only have about 3 weeks of fuel in reserve to nothing. How CLEVER is THAT? Don't bother stocking up. Someone will just kill you for your tankful. Nev I guarantee you IF the World comes to that.....I will make sure there are some dead bodies around and I will do my Level best to make sure one of them is not mine 🙂 Edited April 19, 2021 by jackc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacesailor Posted April 19, 2021 Share Posted April 19, 2021 No fuel !. Get those Pet, lazY, Fat, horses into the shanks. Still Not good at towing,if your boat is hooked onto your car, and the donkey to the car. BUT You can use other animals. Return of slaves. LoL spacesailor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted April 19, 2021 Share Posted April 19, 2021 Be better if you told the Gov't to go by world standards and to have more fuel reserves. or learn some bushcraft and get a skin name from some first people. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacesailor Posted April 19, 2021 Share Posted April 19, 2021 But It is still an ongoing hobby,pastime. Spent a weekend with the " Siberiaun Express all Breeds running club ". Great mateship. They could use those cyclist lanes, in the city, leaving the car at home. spacesailor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted April 19, 2021 Share Posted April 19, 2021 That comment was actually in reply to Jack C above you Spacey. In some places(Like France) finding a parking spot makes taking the car out not worth the trouble. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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