Do dogs count as passengers?

[NT5224]

Hi folks 

 

So was interested to read that CASA have decided to streamline their silly regs on the carriage of animals in aircraft.

 

From what I read, as of next year it will be at the pilots discretion  without the need for explicit CASA approvals, fixed cages e.t.c...

 

Hopefully this will see more of our best chums enjoying flights with us among the clouds...

 

So I'm curious to know whether in aircraft  (and licence categories) restricted to two passengers ( e.g. RAA aircraft and certificates), doggos can be carried in addition to a passenger if the aircraft remains under MTOW, and the dog can be safely and securely accommodated?  Back seat of a J230?  

 

So do dogs count as passengers? Or is it pilot plus passenger plus dog?

 

Thoughts gents? 

 

Cheers 

Alan

 

 

Edited June 10, 2021 by NT5224

[onetrack]

Alan - You have to treat animals as animals, they're not humans, and they can't be given and follow instructions, as humans can.

 

They're largely unpredictable, and respond to vastly different stimuli, as compared to humans.

 

For example, a dog could become very excited at spotting what it recognises as prey, or "chase" animals, from the air, and as result they need some form of harness restraint.

 

I would have to say CASA wouldn't consider dogs to be passengers under any circumstances, simply because they are classed as animals, not humans.

 

Edited June 10, 2021 by onetrack

[IHC150]

Not wanting to hijack your thread Alan, but on a related issue, how many non-private aerodromes allow dogs airside anyway? I know several council run airstrips in my area and they do not permit dogs on the grounds. If this is widespread then does that negate some of the benefits of relaxed regulation in relation to carriage of fur people?

 

Now on another tangent (just so I can vent!) - I felt compelled to have 'words' with some visitors to my local aerodrome last Saturday. I had just flown back in and I knew another aircraft was not far behind me when I pulled up and noticed a large black dog frolicing around the apron area (I think it was a big Labrador so frolic is probably the correct term). I walked over to the people who I perceived to be the owners (who had also let themselves in through the gate airside) and asked if it was their dog. They indicated it was and how they thought the aerodrome was a wonderful place to come and throw the ball and let the dog have a run. I pointed out to them that dogs were not permitted at the aerodrome and how having an unleashed dog airside was a particularly bad idea, especially when aircraft were taxing close by. I then watched as the owners tried unsuccessfully several times to call the dog back - they clearly had no control over it - which just added to my frustration at their lack of commonsense. Goes to show that despite signage at the entrance to the aerodrome you, will still get ignorant/entitled/inattentive people doing silly stuff. Righto, now I have that off my chest (deep breaths!). Cheers Lawrie

[NT5224]

Lawrie

 

I couldn't  agree more. Its nuts if some folks choose to exercise dogs on airfields. That's not their purpose and the dogs pose high risk to both themselves and aircraft operations

 

I think  in those circumstances the authorities would be right to prohibit dogs on the airfield.

 

The Boy (my dog) is a frequent visitor to airfields. He has grown up around and in aircraft.

 

His responsibilities include clearing roos and wildlife off our  home airstrip but he'll provide the same  service at other airfields if instructed. He is  very serious about his work..

 

Alan 

 

Edited June 10, 2021 by NT5224

[skippydiesel]

I am concerned about the possible effect of unnecessary transporting of a dog (any animal) in a small aircraft. 

 

We, humans, have the ability to rationalise our situation, load noise/vibration,  unpleasant smells (fumes), sudden change in air-pressure, turbulence and three dimensional maneuvers. Even with this ability, many people are very stressed by air transport (particularly small aircraft).

 

So try to imagine what this might be like for an animal that does not have the insights, that we may possess, coupled with much better(more sensitive) hearing, smell - in short why would you subject your animal companion to this experience - it can only be for your benefit.

[walrus]

In my experience, dogs are less likely to go berserk in an aircraft than humans - with the exception of happy things like cavoodles, shi-tsu, bichon-fries, chihuahuas etc. These little dogs also have a bad habit of getting stuck under rudder pedals and in throttle quadrants.

 

A friendly Labrador in the co pilot seat can provide a calming influence on an excited pilot. A Border Collie or Kelpie makes an excellent co - pilot since they understand much more about physics than pilots. The only problem with these working breeds is that, left to themselves, they will round up any other aircraft they find and make them fly in formation.

 

As for dogs loose on an airstrip - agree they are a disaster waiting to happen. Not only are the owners risking a canine beheading but the cost of an engine rebuild from the prop strike.

 

‘’However I do recall the late Reg Ansett photographed by his helicopter - with a yellow Lab perched on the back seat.

[Flying Binghi]

Several documented accidents caused by unrestrained dogs. e.g...

 

https://www.foxnews.com/us/large-dog-in-planes-cockpit-likely-caused-fatal-crash-ntsb-says

 

 

 

 

.

[Ironpot]

On 10/06/2021 at 12:56 PM, NT5224 said:

Hi folks 

 

So was interested to read that CASA have decided to streamline their silly regs on the carriage of animals in aircraft.

 

From what I read, as of next year it will be at the pilots discretion  without the need for explicit CASA approvals, fixed cages e.t.c...

 

Hopefully this will see more of our best chums enjoying flights with us among the clouds...

 

So I'm curious to know whether in aircraft  (and licence categories) restricted to two passengers ( e.g. RAA aircraft and certificates), doggos can be carried in addition to a passenger if the aircraft remains under MTOW, and the dog can be safely and securely accommodated?  Back seat of a J230?  

 

So do dogs count as passengers? Or is it pilot plus passenger plus dog?

 

Thoughts gents? 

 

Cheers 

Alan

 

 

Where have you read this please Alan? 

[NT5224]

18 hours ago, Ironpot said:

Where have you read this please Alan? 

 Hi Ironpot 

 

CASA have brought out new plain English flight operations guides  for regs that will come into effect from 2nd December 2021 

 

Check out  the CASA site. They're available to download; Part 91 plain english guide version 1.0 (casa.gov.au)

 

With respect carrying doggo's in aircraft, our chums safety, well-being and comfort must be a primary consideration after general flight safety.  The Boy is always harnessed and restricted to his bench in a safe and comfortable area of the cabin.  He wears passive noise reduction on his ears, the same as human passengers.

 

I completely appreciate the sentiment of Skippy's point:

 

 

I am concerned about the possible effect of unnecessary transporting of a dog (any animal) in a small aircraft. 

 

We, humans, have the ability to rationalise our situation, load noise/vibration,  unpleasant smells (fumes), sudden change in air-pressure, turbulence and three dimensional maneuvers. Even with this ability, many people are very stressed by air transport (particularly small aircraft).

 

However, I do not accept that dogs are distressed by travel in vehicles where they are subject to noises and smell, vibration and acceleration forces from different directions.  Any dog owner who also owns a car will know that many dogs are pretty excited about going for a drive with their families -even on bumpy roads!

 

Most mornings on our daily walk, the  Boy and I stroll down to  the airstrip.   If during our walk I have reason to go into the hangar, The  Boy  gets excited by the prospect of a  flying adventure  and goes to sit beside  the door of the aircraft, waiting to be let in.    

 

If he did  not wish to  drive in a car or fly in an aircraft, I would definitely not force him to ride  in either vehicle. However,  as I live out bush in the Territory,  our companions quality of life would be significantly lower if he could not fly.  That's how many families (including both human and non-human members), get around.  The new CASA regs seem to recognize this and defer to common sense  and the pilots judgment on if (and how) to safely carry an animal.  I think this is a step forward

 

Cheers

 

Alan 

   

  

Edited June 16, 2021 by NT5224

[Ironpot]

Yep that certainly appears to be a relaxation of the rules in CAR 256A

 

Thankyou Alan

 

 

 

 

[JG3]

[onetrack]

It's Snoopy!! Is that the Red Baron I see approaching? 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Yep, dogs need to be on a lead at the airfield. Are there some places which ban dogs even on leads? what possible reason could they have for this?

I have never taken the dog in the plane, but it sure loves the car and gets all excited at the prospect of a car trip. I think the dogs ( border collies around here) really understand how good cars are and how they cover ground fast and effortlessly.

[kgwilson]

Most dogs love riding in a car and especially like hanging their head out the window. I used to take my dogs flying when we went on holiday but they found it all a bit boring because they could not see anything happening outside at several thousand feet and they couldn't hang their head out the window. If a dog with floppy jowls and long floppy ears hung its head out of the window at 120 knots the flapping of all those bits would get it to pull its head back in pretty quick or risk getting beaten to death with its own lips.

[pmccarthy]

My dog has never been flying but when I open the cockpit door she is keen to go.

[skippydiesel]

Dogs really want to be with their pack (family).

Do they want to be in a noisy, unstable, pressure changing, vibrating tube ? -  not having the talents of Dr Doolittle, can not say for sure but my guess is that they dont.

The bond between dog & family is so strong and they so much want to please and be connected with us, we interpret this (anthropomorphism) as wanting to fly.

 

Dogs & cars/utes is another matter - most larger dogs,  that can see out the window, get a  nose into the slip stream, are excited by the experience - put them in a closed van and you get quit a different resul - tend to sleep, may vomit, take little interest and may be reluctant to enter next time.

[walrus]

16 hours ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

Yep, dogs need to be on a lead at the airfield. Are there some places which ban dogs even on leads? what possible reason could they have for this?

I have never taken the dog in the plane, but it sure loves the car and gets all excited at the prospect of a car trip. I think the dogs ( border collies around here) really understand how good cars are and how they cover ground fast and effortlessly.

You probably need a certified and approved lead. 😛

[NT5224]

2 hours ago, walrus said:

You probably need a certified and approved lead. 😛

Not if the dog is registered VH experimental.👍

Edited June 18, 2021 by NT5224

[flying dog]

*&*(&$(!

 

I'm in trouble then!

 

[flying dog]

ONETRACK:

>  Alan - You have to treat animals as animals, they're not humans, and they can't be given and follow instructions, as humans can.

 

Ummmm.....

 

I've seen animals that are more obedient than humans, and humans that make sheep look intelligent.

 

So that statement isn't exactly true.

[walrus]

Quote from an American Forest service officer charged with trying to develop a bear proof rubbish bin/; ‘’There is a considerable IQ overlap between the dumbest tourists and the smartest bear!”

 

I think the average Kelpie or border collie could land most aircraft if they wanted to.

[F10]

Dog loose on the airfield....bad idea! The high frequency buzz of some propellers will casedogs to try to bite the spinning prop, I had been told this by an old crusty heli QFI, who said watch out for landing at an LZ and dogs are around, some will try to jump up and bite the buzzing tail rotor. Takes a courageous dog, with all that noise...but one day, landing my “flying Jeep” Alo III , I noticed this excited Staffie terrier running around, I said to the flight engineer, “watch the dog”, as we were in the hover over the LZ, he was leaning out the door checking the TR and suddenly shouted, “go up three”! The dog had run up and leapt up to have a go at the tail rotor...missing it by not much....only time it had ever happened to me, but it only takes one to ruin your day! Besides, if dogs were around my aircraft, I don’t want to be replacing rusty brake discs or wheel bearings!