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On the hunt for that special aircraft - must conform to as many of the following wants (list not prioritised) as possible:

 

  • Privately owned 
  • Private sale (ie not through a broker)
  • Well used airframe/engine Log Books (not interested in the flight log per say) with comprehensive service record
  • If kit  - Good Build Log 
  • Where applicable - Detailed accident/incident record and repair
  • All AD's, Mandatory Modifications up to date & documented as such 
  • Rotax 912 ULS motivated (my apologies to Jab supporters)
  • Would like to have a 120 knot econamy cruise (or better) Econamy in this context, is about 16 L/hr .
  • It would be great to have a low stall, say 35 knots or better
  • My preference would be for a composite airframe ,however all considered
  • 80-120L fuel capacity (range)
  • 300kg empty weight,  give or take
  • 450 - 600kg TO weight - higher again would be a small advantage for when RAA gets the increase
  • 1000 Hobb hrs or less - will consider new engine in well maintained airframe
  • Will not pay extra for a fancy panel - I am a day VFR pilot

 

It does not have to be immaculate, just well cared for (loved).

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My recent buying experience was a horror story,  I found an aircraft in Victoria  advertised by a broker that read as a good buy with great credentials, since I could not leave Qld to look at it I nee

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As a man who has been in Aviation for decades told me a while back……the only thing lower than the Aviation Industry……is the Horse Racing Industry. Guess I got my lesson in dealing with a broker,

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Skippy have you identified makes/models that might fit? The 120kts economy cruise might be a stretch with low stall. I don't have anything, but might be looking for something similar and am curious.

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16 minutes ago, pmccarthy said:

Skippy have you identified makes/models that might fit? The 120kts economy cruise might be a stretch with low stall. I don't have anything, but might be looking for something similar and am curious.

I  know of  three aircraft that have genuine, vicinity 30 knot  stall, with 120 knot plus econamy cruise. They are Sonerai II, ATEC Faeta and Pipistel SW - I would be pleased to hear about others.

 

There are very few Sonerai fitted with Rotax (most are VW) only two Faeta in Australia (non for sale) and its a very long time since I saw a Pipistrel SW for sale (I probably couldn't afford one anyhow)

 

I have recently focused in on Europa aircraft (all kits) fitted with Rotax engines however these have a comparatively high stall (vicinity of 45 knots) and high empty weight (average 370kg or so). Counteracting the high empty weight is a Max TO of 620 kg (in conforming airframes). Europa are pretty "tight" to get in/out of and in the Mono configuration "challenging" to maneuver on the ground (X wind landings being especially "Fun"). They have a reputation as high speed cruisers - 145 knots or so depending on engine/prop etc.

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47 minutes ago, Thruster88 said:

Yeah! Saw that as well. Not far from me.  Got PPL. Europa derivative - very interesting. Price looks good. Operating costs (Continental) could be quite high, compared with a Rotax powered aircraft

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1 hour ago, RFguy said:

120 kts  8k' TAS or indicated ?

 

I would say it is true airspeed.  120 indicated at 8k in a standard atmosphere would be about 136 TAS, that sounds so much better. Will 136 happen given the hp and weight of that aircraft, I think it is unlikely.  

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Mfr in brochures and used sellers commonly seem to use 5k or 8k TAS....

It sounds better of course.

I like to pull the POH and see what the sea level curves say. 

 

Sounds like you need a Faeta. What about that tug that was for sale? that was a good deal !

 

Flying in a few crosswinds now, I think I'd  actually prefer the stall speed isn't too slow, so I can come in with a bit of authority over the wind .



 

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33 minutes ago, RFguy said:

Mfr in brochures and used sellers commonly seem to use 5k or 8k TAS....

It sounds better of course.

I like to pull the POH and see what the sea level curves say. 

 

Sounds like you need a Faeta. What about that tug that was for sale? that was a good deal !

 

Flying in a few crosswinds now, I think I'd  actually prefer the stall speed isn't too slow, so I can come in with a bit of authority over the wind .



 

Faeta - Price agreed. Had my bags packed - seller withdrew it from sale - very disappointed.

 

Stall speed & X winds - its control authority that determines X wind capability. You can always come in a bit faster, with less/nil flap, if you have the runway length and feel better doing so. If you have poor control authority (particularly rudder - early Jabs?) X wind will always be a challenge

Edited by skippydiesel
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agreed. I was thinking gusty crosswind.

 

That Faeta was a good deal. i didnt buy it because I wanted more endurance than the inboard tank permitted. (and I wanted more space) 

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What's the endurance of the Soneri / 912ULS , i thought the tanks were pretty small ?

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9 minutes ago, RFguy said:

agreed. I was thinking gusty crosswind.

 

That Faeta was a good deal. i didnt buy it because I wanted more endurance than the inboard tank permitted. (and I wanted more space) 

Perfectly reasonable comment - my bladder is good for 2-3 hrs (no more). So as long as the aircraft can do this (may carry additional fuel) I am a happy chappy.

 

Space is an interesting concept - most aircraft specifications talk about carrying capacity in kg, few mention volume. There are aircraft with volume to spare (Jab 230?) and not such great kg carrying capacity due to empty weight and current 600kg max TO (soon to be upgraded). It all comes down to application (might have to cut a small hole in rear bulkhead to accommodate fishing rod)

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13 minutes ago, RFguy said:

What's the endurance of the Soneri / 912ULS , i thought the tanks were pretty small ?

Short answear - dont know. As a 19 aircraft the builder may have incorporated larger tanks (hoping!)

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Skip, I’m thinking a Europa...stall speed maybe a tad more than 30 though.  And if you get some long wings you can switch the iron thermal off.  Negative is low wing, but then I own a Corby which is such a hoot to fly....what’s wrong with 115 kts?

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Hi Mark - my success with Europa's is not so good. So far CO gassed by the first one, could not bring myself to sign the ridiculous Sales Contract presented by the "broker" of the second one.

 

I have always liked Europa's - Stall is about 45 knots. Mono wheel ground handling the most challenging aspect.  Entry/exit just a bit challenging for old farts like myself. Average weight (across fleet) is about 370kg - counteracting this is a max TO weight of 620 kg (useful when RAA gets its weight increase). Build quality is variable, as all kits - this is especially true of the Classic. A lot of Mandatory Modifications have been issued by Europa - need to be very carefully checked for compliance. TO role is quite long and climb out not great - they excel at cruise (if fitted with a CS prop). Possibly not the most comfortable seating arrangement.

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Skip, in sailing boats there’s a saying you can’t have a boat that is fast, cheap and with lots of room below.  You can have any two features but not all three.  I think aeroplanes are similar...we can’t have it all. Perhaps it’s time, as we all are getting older, to compromise on speed, but keep comfort etc.  As per ‘Flying for fun’, spending more time getting there is, might deliver more fun!
I hadn’t heard all that about the Europa....it always looked like a nice aeroplane.

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Skip - maybe reconsider fixing your bird ? Or have someone fix it ?

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I want to see Thruster88 and Skippy have an air race. 

 

Thruster88 in his Muskateer.  Skippy in his fantastic plastic. 

 

Pylon racing or something like that.  Bit of turb so planes are down to Vroughair.  I think the muskateer has a higher Vroughair than most fantastic plastic. 

 

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3 hours ago, RFguy said:

Skip - maybe reconsider fixing your bird ? Or have someone fix it ?

Yeah! might just have to bit the bullet and devote the next 6 month (could be less) to putting her back into the air - by far the cheapest option and so far only had tyre kickers look at her.

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1 hour ago, RFguy said:

I want to see Thruster88 and Skippy have an air race. 

 

Thruster88 in his Muskateer.  Skippy in his fantastic plastic. 

 

Pylon racing or something like that.  Bit of turb so planes are down to Vroughair.  I think the muskateer has a higher Vroughair than most fantastic plastic. 

 

The Musketeer is a tough bird, even maneuvering speed is well above normal cruise speed. Not many non aerobatic are like this. 640kg of empty weight goodness.  

Resized_20210615_134917_2140.jpeg

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8 hours ago, Markdun said:

Skip, in sailing boats there’s a saying you can’t have a boat that is fast, cheap and with lots of room below.  You can have any two features but not all three.  I think aeroplanes are similar...we can’t have it all. Perhaps it’s time, as we all are getting older, to compromise on speed, but keep comfort etc.  As per ‘Flying for fun’, spending more time getting there is, might deliver more fun!
I hadn’t heard all that about the Europa....it always looked like a nice aeroplane.

 I didn't mean to suggest that Europa's are not great - they are. Nothings perfect, particularly  kit built, which will vary from aircraft to aircraft. Europa's are solid, fast, economical aircraft, with good rough field capability.

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  • 3 months later...

I'm sorry you don't like Jabirus Skippy. I just advertised my old one for sale. I tried to state a price of $20,900 but the software would not accept this....  maybe the software thought it was too cheap.

Anybody able to suggest how to get the price on the advert?

 

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