Covid 19

[skippydiesel]

54 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

The epedemiologists know all that and have an algorithm which has worked very well all around Australia; the problem is Sydney people seem to have a death wish and flout all the rules.

The problem with Sydney was undue political interference with the epidemiologists - everyone new that Delta (& possibly future variants) was a game changer but not the Gladys administration, who wanted to stay with the self declared Gold Standard, fully supported & encouraged by Scomo.

 

There were very few if any rules  to "flout" - mostly self interpretation/voluntary adherence - go figure.

 

Your use of the past tense, when mentioning algorithms, is telling - if you dont adapt fast, to a new situation/variant, you will loose, as has Sydney and subsequent infected States.

 

[spacesailor]

I tried to get onto the 'mygov.au ' site. ( see about vax certificate  )

But

As always they Insist on having the " driving  "  license qualification !.

Don,t the '  government  ' know most over 80 people loose that license, not because of any impairment.

BUT

AGE DISCRIMINATION. 

No more ' credit'checks, now No more medical checks.

Spacesailor

 

[KRviator]

44 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

When a State of Emergency is declared, and there are 9 of them in force around Australia, we are not in a sate of democracy, we are taking orders from the people appointed to bring the pandemic to an end.

 

Where democracy fits into this is that governments only decare the SOE for a short period, so the powers expire. In this pandemic SOEs have been renewed many times.

 

So if the SoE can be renewed for a seemingly endless period - are we really in a democracy anymore? Demonstrations in Sydney, Melbourne and to a lesser extent, Brisbane, suggest we are not. When you can be arrested for planning a protest, yet alone actually participating in one, we have serious  problems with Governance in this Country. 

 

Protesting Government decisions is a fundamental human right, to which Australia is a signatory, yet how to you protest a lockdown when you're arrested for violating the very lockdown you're protesting? The worst part is it is not even an elected official who has ordered these lockdowns, rather it is an unelected public servant, with zero accountability who is making decisions with zero accountability for those decisions. We cannot vote someone else into that role next election - and in the case of the QLD CHO, she's been promoted to Governor of the state, despite openly admiotting richer people pose less of a risk than poorer people - that's her understanding of science...

[skippydiesel]

1 hour ago, octave said:

Experience has shown that it is very difficult to maintain an airtight lockdown.   How do we prevent for example removalists traveling and spreading the virus. It is generally harder to prevent an action taking place than it is to prosecute after it has occured  As necessary as tough lockdowns are can we really continue shutting down even small areas regularly.   Are we going to compensate those people who cant work for a week or 2.   Are we going to be able maintain our economy when the counties we compete with do not have to have shutdowns?

 

 

You may find this hard to believe/understand; The removalist where considered an essential service - what lunatic thought that was a good idea?

 

Well as for the econamy::

 

You dont have a healthy econamy if you dont first have a health population.

Do the lockdowns/quarantine orders very fas/hard and most will be under 10 days, if not under 5. - minimal disruption.

We are slowly understanding that the interface between us and  the incoming overseas peoples is the danger point -

All incoming people must be fully vaccinated (no exceptions).

All must undergo some form of effective quarantine (again no exceptions). This must remain until it can be shown that the vaccine prevents transmission (we are not there yet). If transmission potential judged low - in coming travellers should be obliged to wear electronic tracer for potential infective period.

All people working in this area must (by law) be fully vaccinated, wear appropriate PPE , practise good hygiene and be regularly tested for infection. This will never be a 100% secure system but will minimise "brake throughs" - which then must be addressed fast and hard.

 

If we adopt the above (or very similar) our econamy can contine with little (not no) interuption

[turboplanner]

5 minutes ago, KRviator said:

So if the SoE can be renewed for a seemingly endless period - are we really in a democracy anymore? 

I said for a short period, and for that period no, we are not a democracy in terms of health.

5 minutes ago, KRviator said:

 

Demonstrations in Sydney, Melbourne and to a lesser extent, Brisbane, suggest we are not. When you can be arrested for planning a protest, yet alone actually participating in one, we have serious  problems with Governance in this Country. 

Of course we are not, these people are risking the lives of many more people.

5 minutes ago, KRviator said:

 

Protesting Government decisions is a fundamental human right, to which Australia is a signatory

These are not Government decisions; they are commanded decisions or any word you want to use.

 

 

[spacesailor]

The BIG problem, with this WuFlu is the fully vaxinated ARE STILL GETTING &  CAN STILL TRANSMIT IT.

 ' Herd ' immunity !. When that same herd still transmits this virus AND gets sick.

Something doesn,t seem right ?.  ( double vaxed now ).

spacesailor

[skippydiesel]

2 minutes ago, KRviator said:

So if the SoE can be renewed for a seemingly endless period - are we really in a democracy anymore? Demonstrations in Sydney, Melbourne and to a lesser extent, Brisbane, suggest we are not. When you can be arrested for planning a protest, yet alone actually participating in one, we have serious  problems with Governance in this Country. 

 

Protesting Government decisions is a fundamental human right, to which Australia is a signatory, yet how to you protest a lockdown when you're arrested for violating the very lockdown you're protesting? The worst part is it is not even an elected official who has ordered these lockdowns, rather it is an unelected public servant, with zero accountability who is making decisions with zero accountability for those decisions. We cannot vote someone else into that role next election - and in the case of the QLD CHO, she's been promoted to Governor of the state, despite openly admiotting richer people pose less of a risk than poorer people - that's her understanding of science...

I have no sympathy for your position. I am all for minimal Gov interference, the right of free expression/protest BUT NOT IN A WAR/PANDEMIC situation.

 

As an adult, I do not agree with the law that forces me to wear a seat belt/motor/bike helmet - I think you are a fool if you dont but to be obliged to do so is an infringement of my democratic right to self determination (As all adults can not be relied on to make good decisions for their children, I believe in this law(s) for under 18s). There are a host of similar laws that are imposed on us - do we protest - no! Why because we are sheep (my ovine apologies) and because the Gov has failed to effectively communicate the danger we are all  in and how all of use must do our best to support (sometimes crazy) rules to win through. 

[turboplanner]

1 minute ago, spacesailor said:

The BIG problem, with this WuFlu is the fully vaxinated ARE STILL GETTING &  CAN STILL TRANSMIT IT.

 ' Herd ' immunity !. When that same herd still transmits this virus AND gets sick.

Something doesn,t seem right ?.  ( double vaxed now ).

spacesailor

Why are you calling Covid-19 WuFlu?

What's this 'Herd" immunity?

In Australia, some people who have been vaccinated show some symptons and can spread the virus.

However, as more and more people complete their vaccination programme, less and less people will die.

[spacesailor]

I disagreed with that helmet ' law ' . So  l gave away motorcycling,  for fifty years.

spacesailor

[octave]

19 minutes ago, planesmaker said:

Octave, TGA under weekly Covid 19 vaccine safety report

Since the beginning of the vaccine rollout to 18 July 2021, over 10.1 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines have been given. The TGA has received and reviewed 399 reports of deaths in people who have recently been vaccinated and found six that were linked to immunisation. 

 

Deaths of people recently vaccinated people does not mean they died from it.   Many of the early vaccinations have been amongst the elderly and vulnerable.   If you vaccinate 11 million people some if those  people are going to die from unrelated causes. With a worldwide 3.6 billion vaccinations it would be difficult to conceal mass casualties.

 

The deaths that have occured from vaccine are from  AstraZeneca so there are choices as more Pfizer and other vaccines comes onto the scene. If you believe the risks outweigh the benefits then dont get it but why try to deter others from getting it?   You could  just enjoy the benefits of those around you being vaccinated whilst avoiding having it yourself.

 

My reasoning for getting vaccinated?

 

I would be considered to be in a category that would make it more likely that I would end up in ICU.

I travel to NZ every year to visit my son and would love to resume doing this.

My elderly mother lives interstate and since my father died she is quite lonely and we have had to cancel our last 2 trips.

I want to be able to resume an ordinary life free from isolating and cancelling things whenever there is an outbreak.

I don't want to have to worry that the next variant is the one that our vaccines don't work for.

 

There are approx 10000 RAAus pilots and most years several fatalities.  I accept those risks.

 

I don't believe anyone should be forced to be vaccinated but I am more than happy for there to be restrictions on those not vaccinated.  We already do this with schools and many jobs.  During my time in the RAAF I was required to be fully vaccinated. I have a small scar on my arm from a childhood smallpox vax, we longer need this vaccination.

 

 

 

 

 

[Flightrite]

26 minutes ago, KRviator said:

So if the SoE can be renewed for a seemingly endless period - are we really in a democracy anymore? Demonstrations in Sydney, Melbourne and to a lesser extent, Brisbane, suggest we are not. When you can be arrested for planning a protest, yet alone actually participating in one, we have serious  problems with Governance in this Country. 

 

Protesting Government decisions is a fundamental human right, to which Australia is a signatory, yet how to you protest a lockdown when you're arrested for violating the very lockdown you're protesting? The worst part is it is not even an elected official who has ordered these lockdowns, rather it is an unelected public servant, with zero accountability who is making decisions with zero accountability for those decisions. We cannot vote someone else into that role next election - and in the case of the QLD CHO, she's been promoted to Governor of the state, despite openly admiotting richer people pose less of a risk than poorer people - that's her understanding of science...

Well said! We are in serious trouble not from the virus but from the tyranny we are under!

[skippydiesel]

13 minutes ago, Flightrite said:

Well said! We are in serious trouble not from the virus but from the tyranny we are under!

Time & Place my friend - this is nether.

[red750]

2 hours ago, spacesailor said:

I disagreed with that helmet ' law ' . So  l gave away motorcycling,  for fifty years.

spacesailor

You probably also drive at night without your headlights on.

[RossK]

2 hours ago, spacesailor said:

I disagreed with that helmet ' law ' . So  l gave away motorcycling,  for fifty years.

spacesailor

I bet that really affected them 🙄

[spacesailor]

Only slightly.  I ran a motobike shop and taught medical students to ride ( & get their licence  ).

After l decided go give it away. I suppose those students would find someone else to train them, well before 

Driving schools come about. SO it may have affected someone somewere !. LoL

spacesailor

[Jabiru7252]

Gave away motorcycling because of the helmet law? That's like giving away driving because of the seatbelt law. Only a fool would deny that both helmets and seatbelts save lives.

[skippydiesel]

1 hour ago, Jabiru7252 said:

 Only a fool would deny that both helmets and seatbelts save lives.

No offence Jab - you completly miss the point

 

I agree "Only a fool would deny that both helmets and seatbelts save lives."

 

I adopted both set belts & helmets, long befor they became law but deeply resent the state forcing me to wear them. Even going so far as to retro fit  belts to my Morris 1000.

 

One of the corner stones of democracy is; Law/legislation is made to

• Protect the individual from unwanted actions by the majority 
• Conversely, to protect the majority from unwanted actions by the minority.

At no time should a law be enacted that protects the individual from him/herself, unless they be a minor and in the rare case of a demonstrably unsound mind.

 

The seatbelt/bike/motorbike helmet laws are simply an affront to democracy as are all similar laws.

 

Unfortunately Australia (& its States) has enacted many such laws - without protest from the population. Yet a temporary restriction on liberty, for the demonstrable good of all, has thousandths of cretins marching in the street - putting us all at greatly increased risk of CV19 and a greatly prolonged lockdown - go figure!

 

 

 

[spacesailor]

At the time the U K enacted that law,! It was revealed that it was Solely to eliminate the mess of ' Brains ' splattered on the roadway.  Nicer to have the same Death from a brocken neck, than the ' grey matter ' mess to be cleaned by council workers. ( statment from a hospital person ).

No noticeable decline in deaths in that 1st year.

Not much has changed, if you hit a semi headon at speed, your helmet won,t save you.

My daughter a ' ses ' volunteer was allways called out to any messy accident  ( like a super Fat person driving his car flat out into a tree, (couldn't find the body under the dash ).).

As she had a strong stomach for that grizzly stuff.

spacesailor

[walrus]

A few points………

 

Common law recognises that there are situations requiring people’s traditional liberties to be curtailed. One of those is war, a far more common one is epidemics or pandemics where it is universally accepted that behaviour must be modified to protect the general community.

 

‘’Classic every day examples include water, sewerage, gas and electricity inspectors as well as fire services, who can “trample on your human rights” any time they like if they think they need to in order to protect the community.

 

‘’So the idea you can protest lockdowns, etc is wrong in law. Those decisions are legal under the public health act.

 

‘’So you argue that Covid isn’t real, vaccines don’t work? Sure you can do that - you are arguing that the public health act doesn’t apply - good luck with that. There are enough very sick people to prove you wrong.

 

‘’Arguing Anything else - gates/soros/ world domination etc.’ then you are with the crazies.

 

‘’Please get vaccinated.

Edited July 26, 2021 by walrus

[poteroo]

36 minutes ago, walrus said:

 

‘’So the idea you can protest lockdowns, etc is wrong in law. Those decisions are legal under the public health act.

If ever there was a fit for strict liability, non-compliance with public health directions, after a pandemic has been declared, then it is with these so-called protests.

[onetrack]

Quote

When you can be arrested for planning a protest, yet alone actually participating in one, we have serious  problems with Governance in this Country.

I don't see anything wrong with people being arrested for planning a protest, when that planned protest poses a serious threat to the health of the community, whereby any number of the protestors could be carrying COVID-19 - and potentially initiating a virus super-spreader event.

 

In addition, the planned protest would be in direct contravention of legally-issued laws and regulations, designed to protect the health of the community. What part of all this, is so hard to understand??

 

There's a few people on this forum who have taken their logic directly from Donald Trumps view of the world. Logic that works backwards from unproven conclusions, looking to manufacture the "facts" to produce the conclusions they had already decided on, before any facts were identified.

[turboplanner]

18 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

You may find this hard to believe/understand; The removalist where considered an essential service - what lunatic thought that was a good idea?

The two "removalists" with two trucks who spent five hours in a Melbourne Unit causing a lockdown, and went on to infect people in SA and NSW gave unsatisfactory stories to Victorian contact tracers who handed them over to Victoria Police who are working with NSW Police. The other two, I think in NSW were also sen as exceptions to the rule.

 

I've attended several annual meetings of the Victorian Removalists Association and they work to a high standard of responsibility in terms of securing clients possessions from damage or theft, so there's already a base for safe contactless furniture transport which doesn't involve spending five hours with a client in a unit.

 

Most peple will be surprised to know that the long distance transport industry, classified as essential, has been operating throughout the pandemic which is why you have an unlimited supply of Bowen fruit & veg in Victoria etc. It amazes me that the drivers have been able to handle the huge imposition of extra paperwork, inspections, separation at destinations, overnighting etc, but they have, so successfully that it hasn't been a newsworthy event. We should be thanking them for keeping the supplies up in what must be a nightmare time for them.

[skippydiesel]

Turbo - The transport industry has, for the most part, done a great job and should be considered among the many unsung hero's of the pandemic BUT how does a house contents relocation (removalists) become an essential service, when we are all under some forme of lockdown/boarder closure?

 

Sure people (& their effects) must be able to relocate, for a host of good reasons, but this must not happen during a lockdown.

 

The whole point of a lockdown/boarder closure is to limit movement - every person who legally or illegally breaches that cordon increases the risk of transmission. Why increase the risk if you dont have to?

 

I am not blaming the removalist that crossed boarders (the ones that went Sydney/Orange/Molong are something else) NSW, Vic & SA were just doing their job, as an "essential service".

 

I do blame the authorities for not poor communication also for poor definition of what is an essential service.

Edited July 26, 2021 by skippydiesel

[turboplanner]

8 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

Turbo - The transport industry has, for the most part, done a great job and should be considered among the many unsung hero's of the pandemic BUT how does a house contents relocation (removalists) become an essential service, when we are all under some forme of lockdown/boarder closure?

 

Sure people (& their effects) must be able to relocate, for a host of good reasons, but this must not happen during a lockdown.

 

The whole point of a lockdown/boarder closure is to limit movement - every person who legally or illegally breaches that cordon increases the risk of transmission. Why increase the risk if you dont have to?

 

I am not blaming the removalist that crossed boarders (the ones that went Sydney/Orange/Molong are something else) NSW, Vic & SA were just doing their job, as an "essential service".

 

I do blame the authorities for not poor communication also for poor definition of what is an essential service.

From memory the furniture removalists involved caused 1 or 2 of the lockdowns, ie were moving when there was no lockdown.

 

Agree that a house in lockdown can't have removalists going in, but removalists moving stock from dept to depot, usually in containers, is a different application.

[skippydiesel]

4 hours ago, turboplanner said:

From memory the furniture removalists involved caused 1 or 2 of the lockdowns, ie were moving when there was no lockdown.

 

Agree that a house in lockdown can't have removalists going in, but removalists moving stock from dept to depot, usually in containers, is a different application.

 

Stand to be corrected but did they not come from Sydney where there was lockdown (or should have been)?? and yes they did cause a lockdown in Vic & I think SA.

 

I dont really think of a container of who knows what (furniture)being shipped between states (depots) as "removalist".

 

To me removalists are a team of people usually traveling in large covered truck, entering primases A & manually removing loading furniture, with the assistance /direction of the furniture owner. Traveling some distance and reversing the process into premises B.

So we have a team of people who have assemble from their various homes (in Sydney)possibly one or more infected with CV. They then meet indoors with the furniture owner(s) who may also be infected - spend a few hours/day together - get fed & watered at the the nearest takeaway. Then drive X hrs to somewhere (depot/down the track) get fed & watered some more in crowded truck stop (s). Arrive at destination (Vic?) and reverse the whole procedure.

Multiple opportunities for infection - essential?/necessary?