Covid 19

[Flightrite]

There are a lot of afraid people in here by the looks of things which is fine as that's exactly what the grubby Govt want!:-) It's about choice so until that choice is removed from us I'll still have to endure the same ludicrous restrictions as you jabbed lot:-) I'll await more personnel attacks, seems to be the Aussie way!

[spacesailor]

Now they,ve brought in the army !.

Shades of the English coal miners strike ! Were they murdered unarmed miners.

spacesailor

 

[red750]

28 minutes ago, Flightrite said:

It's about choice so until that choice is removed from us I'll still have to endure the same ludicrous restrictions as you jabbed lot

If you live that long. Choice has nothing to do with it.

[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, spacesailor said:

Now they,ve brought in the army !.

Shades of the English coal miners strike ! Were they murdered unarmed miners.

spacesailor

 

As the Victorian Government did last year and the South Australian Government did recently simply to expand the front line workforce on quarantine, contact tracing and border staff, and which has worked extremely well for Australia.

 

Edited July 30, 2021 by turboplanner

[red750]

It's just a numbers thing. The soldiers will visit homes where people are meant to be isolating, and if they are not home, then the police will charge them. But to patrol the area of that size would soak up all police resources leaving no-one to deal woth robberies, muggings or worse. So  the army take up the leg work. If you are in isolation awaiting results of a test, and are not home when you are supposed to be, you will get what's coming to you.

[RossK]

extract from an ABC article from last year on Victorias lockdown;

 

As the city's first-ever widespread curfew came into effect at the weekend, 5 million people suddenly found themselves living in a dystopian novel.

Police now patrol the streets with expanded powers, smashing the car windows of those who refuse to give their details.

Pre-recorded government messages ring out over loudspeakers in empty train stations warning of the virus.

Door-to-door checks are being carried out by police and Defence Force troops.

And those caught on the streets between 8:00pm and 5:00am now need to carry government papers to prove they are allowed out.

Edited July 30, 2021 by RossK

[APenNameAndThatA]

5 hours ago, spacesailor said:

Now they,ve brought in the army !.

Shades of the English coal miners strike ! Were they murdered unarmed miners.

spacesailor

 

I've got $10 that says that the soldiers actually won't murder anyone. Bet? 

[APenNameAndThatA]

40 minutes ago, RossK said:

extract from an ABC article from last year on Victorias lockdown;

 

As the city's first-ever widespread curfew came into effect at the weekend, 5 million people suddenly found themselves living in a dystopian novel.

Police now patrol the streets with expanded powers, smashing the car windows of those who refuse to give their details.

Pre-recorded government messages ring out over loudspeakers in empty train stations warning of the virus.

Door-to-door checks are being carried out by police and Defence Force troops.

And those caught on the streets between 8:00pm and 5:00am now need to carry government papers to prove they are allowed out.

The alternative is deaths from COVID. The US has 630 000 dead. If Australia had the same death rate, we would have 60 000 dead. Instead, we have 1000 dead. Everyone knows that lockdowns are unpleasant and that vaccines can kill people and that freedoms are being taken away. The issue is that the lockdowns are less unpleasant than people dying, vaccines are three orders of magnitude safer than COVID and that the most important freedom is the freedom of being dead from COVID. Ross, you need to be able to hold more than one idea in your brain at a time...

[onetrack]

Quote

Police now patrol the streets with expanded powers, smashing the car windows of those who refuse to give their details.

It might come as a surprise to some of the "freedom" lover set - but it has always been the case that you can possibly be arrested for refusing to provide your name and address to police. And the police can request your name and address if they suspect a crime has been committed. So if you refuse to provide your name and address, it only leads to more suspicion that you're trying to conceal a crime.

[APenNameAndThatA]

5 hours ago, Flightrite said:

There are a lot of afraid people in here by the looks of things which is fine as that's exactly what the grubby Govt want!:-) It's about choice so until that choice is removed from us I'll still have to endure the same ludicrous restrictions as you jabbed lot:-) I'll await more personnel attacks, seems to be the Aussie way!

Lets examine fear. The vaccine kills 1 in 1 000 000. COVID kills 1 in 100. Some people are more afraid of the virus. Some people are more afraid of the vaccine. It depends on how well they grasp maths, I guess. 

 

Lets examine freedom. Vaccines have always been mandatory. The freedom from deadly childhood diseases is more valuable than the freedom to refuse to be vaccinated. The freedom to endanger others is no freedom at all but a power grab. I am irritated that in the US it is the "conservative" people who are against vaccines. Being conservative is supposed to be about doing one's duty, serving the community, fidelity and protecting people. It used to hippy left who were selfish and were just into freedom and individual rights. Now, conservative people deny any duty to the community, do nothing to serve those who can't be vaccinated, and resist having to do things that protect others. 

 

If we had the same death rate as the USA, we would have had 63 000 dead. Some people want to be free, even if it kills 62 000 people, some people don't. 

[RossK]

5 minutes ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

The alternative is deaths from COVID. The US has 630 000 dead. If Australia had the same death rate, we would have 60 000 dead. Instead, we have 1000 dead. Everyone knows that lockdowns are unpleasant and that vaccines can kill people and that freedoms are being taken away. The issue is that the lockdowns are less unpleasant than people dying, vaccines are three orders of magnitude safer than COVID and that the most important freedom is the freedom of being dead from COVID. Ross, you need to be able to hold more than one idea in your brain at a time...

I do actually agree with everything you've said. I posted that as an example of what we went through last year and that if the government has the resolve to do it, significant outbreaks can be overcome. 

I've been through a real lockdown,

had my business suffer financially, 

retrenched staff,

not seen my kids and grandkids for months.

had my vaccinations.

It all hurt - but I'm glad we've done it as the alternative is worse, in my opinion.

[turboplanner]

49 minutes ago, RossK said:

extract from an ABC article from last year on Victorias lockdown;

 

As the city's first-ever widespread curfew came into effect at the weekend, 5 million people suddenly found themselves living in a dystopian novel.

Police now patrol the streets with expanded powers, smashing the car windows of those who refuse to give their details.

Pre-recorded government messages ring out over loudspeakers in empty train stations warning of the virus.

Door-to-door checks are being carried out by police and Defence Force troops.

And those caught on the streets between 8:00pm and 5:00am now need to carry government papers to prove they are allowed out.

If you watch or listen to the ABC instead of checking your State's Department of Health official statements and the State/Territory CHO and Leader's statements you deserve what you finish up with. Same goes with the morning TV News - it usually has the presenter's spin, designed to produce a reaction. This morning on Channel 9 we were treated to  an official from Merrylands Councils in Sydney explaining how we didn't understand the local people and other manfesto chaff and repeating another Mayor's statement that the people needed to get back to work to "put food on the table" He just forgot to mention that the State and Federal Governments are propping people up financially when they are in lockdown anywhere in Australia, and that extra services like Beyond Blue, or Council meals facilities and having money poured into them in any lockdown area. In fact it's hard for the good guys with the genuine truthful messages to get a word in over the "experts" and "Commentators" who don't know what's going on but feel free to discuss openly how they would have done it. From what the Merrylands guy said tis morning it wouldn't surprise me to see a Merrylands contingent at the next anti-government, anti-vaxing demonstration in Sydney, and no incoming calls to his Council for help, just the few dozen congratulating him for sticking it up the Australians.   While that pantomime was taking place the News department was telling us Sydney has had a records number of infections overnight the biggest percentage of them cause by people visiting family and people travelling all over Sydney during the lockdown. Sometimes you can't help people.

[Jaba-who]

What’s really annoying is the “no-lockdown” brigade  talking and acting like there is a no lockdown option. 
everyone has to realise there’s are only two options and they both involve lockdowns. 
1. lockdowns and control spread before the deaths and overrunning of health services happen

or

2. Lockdown after we have  lost control and the deaths have happened and the health system can’t cope. 
 

At the moment there are NO other options. 

Edited July 30, 2021 by Jaba-who

[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, Jaba-who said:

What’s really annoying is the “no-lockdown” brigade  talking and acting like there is a no lockdown option. 
everyone has to realise there’s are only two options and they both involve lockdowns. 
1. lockdowns and control spread before the deaths and overrunning of health services happen

or

2. Lockdown after we have  lost control and the deaths have happened and the health system can’t cope. 
 

At the moment there are NO other options. 

Yes, and Australia is doing so well with the lockdown/contact tracing policy compared with other countries who've let their people loose, which unsurprisingly spreads it. Victoria's trigger for lockdown is the point where the known infection number is enough that if the spread continues at the current rate, the hospitals wold be overwhelmed, so quite a controlled situation.

[Jerry_Atrick]

Yep.. anti-lockdowners and anti-vaxxers offer no alternative. And, the evidence points that lives are saved and the economy fares much better when the lockdown is hard and fast, and over with quickly (relatively).

 

Even Josh Frydenberg, citing EY research is saying the extended lockdown that is required in NSW will lead to a second recession..  https://www.theage.com.au/politics/federal/treasurer-warns-sydney-lockdown-could-lead-to-second-recession-20210729-p58dxw.html

 

If NSW acted faster, there would probably be no recession and wouldn't that be better for business as well as people? Sounds like the hard/fast and ultimately relatively quick lock-downs, while providing temporary issues, are, so far, the best option while waiting for the country to be vaccinated.

 

 

 

[poteroo]

8 hours ago, red750 said:

I'm uncertain as to the origins of COVID-19, but what I do understand is that each strain or variant has a mathematical rate-of-mutation: meaning that the greater the numbers of the virus, the greater chance there is of mutations occurring. However, whether these mutants are more or less virulent, more or less transmissive, more or less persistent on surfaces and, whether they alight on, and infect, a susceptible human, is unknown  - at least for a start.  When an organism, (virus, fungi, bacteria), reaches epidemic proportions, then more new strains can be expected - but in the greater majority of instances, they fall on non receptive surfaces or persons, (vaccinated or naturally resistant), and go no further. If the human, (or plant, or animal), is tolerant, (perhaps due to prior exposure/antigen buildup, or is multi-gene tolerant), then the organism fails to create more than mild infections and less spreading. It is one hell of a good case for vaccination, even if you only expect 60-70% (efficacy). Letting a disease 'rip ' as did Sweden, will eventually work, ( 'survival-of-the-fittest '...Darwin!), but at what cost?  Aus 1000 deaths for 25m pop, vs Sweden 14000 deaths for 10m population.  If the anti-everything brigade hold sway - we won't have enough Greek characters to name all the variants!

 

btw, you won't find much support in WA for 'freedom fighters' other than the usual 'rent-a-crowd' which we see at every demo - just with different signage!!

[poteroo]

8 hours ago, red750 said:

I'm uncertain as to the origins of COVID-19, but what I do understand is that each strain or variant has a mathematical rate-of-mutation: meaning that the greater the numbers of the virus, the greater chance there is of mutations occurring. However, whether these mutants are more or less virulent, more or less transmissive, more or less persistent on surfaces and, whether they alight on, and infect, a susceptible human, is unknown  - at least for a start.  When an organism, (virus, fungi, bacteria), reaches epidemic proportions, then more new strains can be expected - but in the greater majority of instances, they fall on non receptive surfaces or persons, (vaccinated or naturally resistant), and go no further. If the human, (or plant, or animal), is tolerant, (perhaps due to prior exposure/antigen buildup, or is multi-gene tolerant), then the organism fails to create more than mild infections and less spreading. It is one hell of a good case for vaccination, even if you only expect 60-70% (efficacy). Letting a disease 'rip ' as did Sweden, will eventually work, ( 'survival-of-the-fittest '...Darwin!), but at what cost?  Aus 1000 deaths for 25m pop, vs Sweden 14000 deaths for 10m population.  If the anti-everything brigade hold sway - we won't have enough Greek characters to name all the variants!

 

btw, you won't find much support in WA for 'freedom fighters' other than the usual 'rent-a-crowd' which we see at every demo - just with different signage!!

[APenNameAndThatA]

[Marty_d]

11 hours ago, Flightrite said:

There are a lot of afraid people in here by the looks of things which is fine as that's exactly what the grubby Govt want!:-) It's about choice so until that choice is removed from us I'll still have to endure the same ludicrous restrictions as you jabbed lot:-) I'll await more personnel attacks, seems to be the Aussie way!

 

Well mate, I'm sorry if you took what I said as a personal attack, but your post immediately prior called people who got the vaccination "lunatics" - so you did kind of throw the first stone.

 

And while you're enduring lockdown, consider this - the government's mistake was not organising bulk purchase of Pfizer when they had the chance, because you don't put all your eggs in one basket.  But the only way you're NOT going to get lockdowns is when you get a certain percentage (probably 85-90) of the population vaccinated.  

[Jerry_Atrick]

I am still struggling to see how this is what the grubby government want? Don't get me wrong, the government is grubby - no doubt about it, but they would rather not have to lock people down and pay for it; although it did manage to find its way into some business people's wallet who didn't need it, so I suppose the government will consider it job done!

 

But what are the government getting out of it? Are they exercising more control to their benefit over the people by imposing lockdowns when required? I am not seeing it. Apart from the restriction of movement, what more control do they have that is enduring (remember, state of emergency has to be renewed, and famously Dan Andrews wanted 12 months and didn't get it).

 

Pre vaccination, there was a need to lockdown and it appears the pollies whose party pockets are lined by business were the ones not wanting to do it. Gladys is now paying the price; SFM famously got the federal government to join the constitutional action initiated by Clive Palmer to keep the WA borders open. When he realised it was going to cost him more votes than Palmer's dirty donation money could buy, he decided that it wasn't a good idea after all.

 

Sadly, there is a vocal minority who think that this is some conspiracy theory to allow governments to seize control, but what other rights are under attack as a result of this? And the governments seem to want to open up as soon as practical; they have not continued the lockdown when the numbers show they don't need to.. so where is this control grab coming from - as opposed, to say anti-terror laws used for non-anti-terror events?

 

Happily, the Aus electorate seems to back the governments taking a responsible approach - What was the WA election result, again? And the Qld result? I am not sure how Dan Andrews will do in the next election, but his popularity seems to have increased; while the pollies who were more "liberal" with the lockdown requirement and fighting COVID seem to be struggling at the moment (of course,  COVID is not the only factor dragging them down).

 

Australia is a free country - and you have a choice to take the vaccine or not - no one is going to force you and they're not going to kill you if you don't.. But when Aus has reached the critical mass of vaccinations, well, according to The Age today, the lockdowns will stop and normality will resume - for those who are vaccinated. I can't see an employer of, say airline pilots allowing a non-vaccinated pilot into the cockpit.. I could be wrong.. And it is [currently] a pretty tough job to do from home. Similarly, I can't see too many airlines allowing unvaccinated people a seat on an aircraft when economics dictate that they no longer want to force social distancing.. But this won't be the government impressing the rules on us.

 

The UK is now out of lockdown with c. 65% of the adult population vaccinated. Virtually all hospitalisations and deaths in the UK (125 deaths the other day) are non vaccinated people. Some businesses won't accept customers without face coverings - I still wear mine because I know there is c. 35% of the population still yet to be vaccinated and I don't want to pass it on to them. Anecdotally, 95% of people still do. Seems the government here has relinquished its control. So much for that conspiracy theory..

 

But, hey.. still think its a conspiracy theory? As I have said before, get together with like minded people and throw a COVID party as people did during the first lockdown.. And make sure at least one person has it. The new Delta variant should do the trick. Sadly a few caught the earlier strain COVID from the party and died. It wasn't long before their friends and family believed the urgency of the situation.

Edited July 30, 2021 by Jerry_Atrick

[turboplanner]

11 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

I am still struggling to see how this is what the grubby government want? Don't get me wrong, the government is grubby - no doubt about it, but they would rather not have to lock people down and pay for it; although it did manage to find its way into some business people's wallet who didn't need it, so I suppose the government will consider it job done!

 

But what are the government getting out of it? Are they exercising more control to their benefit over the people by imposing lockdowns when required? I am not seeing it. Apart from the restriction of movement, what more control do they have that is enduring (remember, state of emergency has to be renewed, and famously Dan Andrews wanted 12 months and didn't get it).

The Johns Hopkins University of Medicine figures for July 30 are:

UK: 129,718 dead - (191.1 deaths per 100,000 people)

USA: 611,801 dead - (184.8 deaths per 100,00 people) - 321 more died while I was collating figures.

Australia: 923 dead - (3.6 deaths per 100,000 people)   

New Zealand: 26 dead - (0.5 deaths per 100,000 people)

 

This is the performance you are commenting on.

I'm not sure why you'd be calling our government grubby, because the Commonwealth Government is not calling the lockdowns. They are being called by 8 State and Territory Chief Health Officers, and the State and Territory Premiers and First Ministers then set the plan to achieve what the medical people want. The medical people are informed by their own medical groups and whatever they call on in terms if Universities etc to crunch the numbers and Contact tracing requires a lot of number crunching to produce the precision we've seen.

The State Government controls the life of the Declaration of Emergency. Once they drop the hammer on that it's the CHO who calls all the health shots such as lock downs, policies etc.   

 

The State and Territory Governments are about evenly divided between Labor and Coalition around the Country. What the Commonwealth Government did do early was establish a National Cabinet made up of Commonwelath, State and Territory leaders, and this has worked extremely well because it tones down some of the more extreme moves and lifts the game generally and helps the States and Territories get an even deal from the Commonwealth.

 

All of this has led to the overall performance to date.

 

This "separation of power" has allowed all governments to do their daily work as well, and during the pandemic Australia's unemployment rate has dropped to less than 6%, and it quickly climbed out of recession and currenty has a sound economy.

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

Pre vaccination, there was a need to lockdown and it appears the pollies whose party pockets are lined by business were the ones not wanting to do it. Gladys is now paying the price; SFM famously got the federal government to join the constitutional action initiated by Clive Palmer to keep the WA borders open. When he realised it was going to cost him more votes than Palmer's dirty donation money could buy, he decided that it wasn't a good idea after all.

There has been constant pressure from the sidelines and media to open up whenever there's a lockdown, the pressure coming from people who want to make money and don't care if others die. They've lost, and it shows the benefit of having medical decisions made at arms length from government.

Quote

 

Sadly, there is a vocal minority who think that this is some conspiracy theory to allow governments to seize control, but what other rights are under attack as a result of this? And the governments seem to want to open up as soon as practical; they have not continued the lockdown when the numbers show they don't need to.. so where is this control grab coming from - as opposed, to say anti-terror laws used for non-anti-terror events?

You're right. Plenty in the media have been playing it one way one day and the opposite the next. But in the end it's just hot air; the decisions are being made on medical facts. I'm not aware of any of the governments trying to sieze control, and there is plenty of Opposition work going on about political work. Certainly there's been a block of people, different people at different times complaining bout abuse of their legal rights, apparently not aware that a State of Emergency takes some of them away, so there's an opportunity for an extra subject at schools called "How a Government works", and they could provide handouts for a third of the population of Australia.

Quote

 

Happily, the Aus electorate seems to back the governments taking a responsible approach - What was the WA election result, again? And the Qld result? I am not sure how Dan Andrews will do in the next election, but his popularity seems to have increased; while the pollies who were more "liberal" with the lockdown requirement and fighting COVID seem to be struggling at the moment (of course,  COVID is not the only factor dragging them down).

You're right; the governments in power have the momentum, the CHO's will disappear into oblivion when this ends because we are dumb enough, and I mean really dumb, to vote for just two people in a State or Federal election, and not all the people who are good at doing their jobs.

Quote

 

Australia is a free country - and you have a choice to take the vaccine or not - no one is going to force you and they're not going to kill you if you don't.. But when Aus has reached the critical mass of vaccinations, well, according to The Age today, the lockdowns will stop and normality will resume - for those who are vaccinated. I can't see an employer of, say airline pilots allowing a non-vaccinated pilot into the cockpit.. I could be wrong.. And it is [currently] a pretty tough job to do from home. Similarly, I can't see too many airlines allowing unvaccinated people a seat on an aircraft when economics dictate that they no longer want to force social distancing.. But this won't be the government impressing the rules on us.

 

The UK is now out of lockdown with c. 65% of the adult population vaccinated. Virtually all hospitalisations and deaths in the UK (125 deaths the other day) are non vaccinated people. Some businesses won't accept customers without face coverings - I still wear mine because I know there is c. 35% of the population still yet to be vaccinated and I don't want to pass it on to them. Anecdotally, 95% of people still do. Seems the government here has relinquished its control. So much for that conspiracy theory..

 

But, hey.. still think its a conspiracy theory? As I have said before, get together with like minded people and throw a COVID party as people did during the first lockdown.. And make sure at least one person has it. The new Delta variant should do the trick. Sadly a few caught the earlier strain COVID from the party and died. It wasn't long before their friends and family believed the urgency of the situation.

That's all yet to be decided but it appears that both non-vaccinated and vaccinated people will continue to spread the virus, but vaccinated people will not get seriously ill or die. That has a one-way ending for people who reject vaccination, so doesn't need regulating. What's being worked on is getting ready for openeing up Australia to overseas travel again, and there's a huge disparity around the world, so some form of instant vaccination confirmation will be needed.

Edited July 30, 2021 by turboplanner

[Jerry_Atrick]

3 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

I'm not sure why you'd be calling our government grubby,

In the context of a discussion on Australia, well, er, things like climate change denial, fossil fuel lobbies, tax breaks for the rich, er the Afghanis who helped Australia being left for dead, civil libertarian issues, sexual abuse and cover-ups, etc... The assertion was a reflection of another user's assertion and was a subtle attempt to say, hey, while they are grubby,  they haven't been so grubby with respect to COVID*

13 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

The Johns Hopkins University of Medicine figures for July 30 are:

UK: 129,718 dead - (191.1 deaths per 100,000 people)

USA: 611,801 dead - (184.8 deaths per 100,00 people) - 321 more died while I was collating figures.

Australia: 923 dead - (3.6 deaths per 100,000 people)   

New Zealand: 26 dead - (0.5 deaths per 100,000 people)

Excellent analysis... this should be ample evidence to those who look for conspiracy theories that the reckless, if not criminal behaviour of governments entrusted to protect their citizens who bowed to their sponsors... er.. donors and vested interests acted wrongly. I did not mean to say Australia was grubbier is less competent that any other country.

 

 

20 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

... the Commonwealth Government is not calling the lockdowns. They are being called by 8 State and Territory Chief Health Officers, and the State and Territory Premiers and First Ministers then set the plan to achieve what the medical people want.

Exactly, which was my reference to the state governments who did act decisively seem to be fairing very well by the electorate.. BTW, even at state government level, politics is otherwise grubby...
 However, those governments who have taken a more liberal approach to controlling the pandemic seem not to be enjoying as much electoral support.. And coincidentally, this video was just released:

 

(Just wanted to clear up, as I have said on the sister site, the state governments by and large have been doing well.. Even Gladys, who is having a few issues at the moment, has by and large, well.. been OK...)

[skippydiesel]

Brilliant Jerry!!!!!!

[Flightrite]

14 hours ago, Marty_d said:

 

Well mate, I'm sorry if you took what I said as a personal attack, but your post immediately prior called people who got the vaccination "lunatics" - so you did kind of throw the first stone.

 

You twisted my wording to suit your personnel attacking agenda! The lunatics are the grubby Govt not the people who have had the jab, read it properly before you attack me again!

 

Edited July 31, 2021 by Flightrite

[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

Exactly, which was my reference to the state governments who did act decisively 

I just want to make it clear in the light of your post above that the lockdown decisions are made by the people appointed to make them, the Chief Health officers and NOT by the State Governments. The video certainly seems to have entertained some people, along with setting off an apparent grubby politician trend, but has very little to do with Australia.