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Interested - single or twin engine?


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Vertical,  In your ab initio training stage,  you don't want a complex (and expensive to operate) plane. Something like a decathlon  (or a Jabiru 230 ) would be fine .Chucking twins around is the real

This is the comment that you should pay attention too, IMHO, it's by far the most accurate statement in this thread.   Annecdote; my other hobby is sailing off the beach dinghys, and i've pr

I’m feeling like I just got a huge spoon of cod liver oil-of-humility!   I guess I’ve been paper flying from the armchair - much easier than shoe leather.  I’m really glad I stumbled in here, hal

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Did Vertical say he was after thrills. What I read was that he appreciated fine machinery. I doubt that even Clyde Cessna himself would call an aerobat "fine machinery"

As far as fine machinery goes didn't Mooney have a Porsche engined version for that and it was not a success. When we think of fine machinery, we think beautifully built, smooth engines which tick over silently and also accelerate at explosive rates. Not what we are looking for in an aeroplane. To us what we need is an engine that produces a lot of power, continuously at low RPM. That is not like a Ferrari or Porsche in my opinion.

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If you want "character" get an oil burning radial.  Go fast planes at low level can give you a very bumpy and unpleasant ride.. Don't own a plane you can pull the wings off easily.. because you might..  and it's not hard to. The bottom edge of the sky is the place to watch what you are doing.

    What keeps planes in the sky? Magic and lots of money..If you build a plane you will probably forget how to fly by the time you finish it.   Flying can be fun whatever the plane. It's an office with a view.  Contrary to what the advertising blurb said, it won't land itself. Pilot's often think rules are for lesser mortals and accidents only happen to "other" pilots. . You only have too much fuel when you are on fire, is nearly right.

  Famous last words "Oh I thought YOU had it." .......I wonder what happens if you move THIS switch?.  EVERYBODY makes mistakes.  I'm pretty sure we got a clearance..  Nev

 

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Although I don't recommend, I think it is doable. 

 

People always struggle when transitioning onto a different aircraft, regardless of experience.  

 

Most stories you hear when 10's of thousands hours airline pilots transitioning onto gliders or ultralights, struggling to land, fly, etc, however the more is true when single engine pilots transition onto twins or jets.

 

Twins are lots of aeroplanes, requiring you to be >ahead< of aircraft, at least 20-30sec, a skill which deteriorates with age regardless of experience. They also require specific knowledge about systems, emergencies, etc..  and again with age it takes probably double the time to learn. 

 

If $ is not an issue, you could buy yourself a twin, find an instructor/school willing to teach, then keep flying your aircraft daily in all weather until it becomes muscle memory. Expect to solo after ~100+ hours, or whenever the instructor sign you off. Also check with insurance, they may not insure if you don't have certain number of hours.

 

Again, I don't recommend this path for  reasons mentioned above, however with lots of $ and your persistence, anything is doable.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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18 hours ago, facthunter said:

If you want "character" get an oil burning radial.  Go fast planes at low level can give you a very bumpy and unpleasant ride.. Don't own a plane you can pull the wings off easily.. because you might..  and it's not hard to. The bottom edge of the sky is the place to watch what you are doing.

    What keeps planes in the sky? Magic and lots of money..If you build a plane you will probably forget how to fly by the time you finish it.   Flying can be fun whatever the plane. It's an office with a view.  Contrary to what the advertising blurb said, it won't land itself. Pilot's often think rules are for lesser mortals and accidents only happen to "other" pilots. . You only have too much fuel when you are on fire, is nearly right.

  Famous last words "Oh I thought YOU had it." .......I wonder what happens if you move THIS switch?.  EVERYBODY makes mistakes.  I'm pretty sure we got a clearance..  Nev

 

Reminds me of other famous last words:  “…watch this!”😳

Edited by Vertical
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Many moons ago I was a safety driver for a guy I knew who was rich & wanted to drive planes. a late starter. He bought a C182 & got taught, got a ticket & promptly wrote the Cessna off! He then bought a C210 & PA30, both well beyond him but got a twin rating (somehow!)& by all accounts near killed himself in both, this is where I came in. He was told by numerous instructors NOT to drive planes solo! (did the same thing for Bib Stillwell's Bro) so I accompanied him/them when they wanted to drive a plane! The  guy was 70 years old (long gone now), some shouldn't fly at an advanced age!

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17 minutes ago, facthunter said:

Depends on who you ask. .  You are old when everywhere you go, you are the oldest.. Nev

I prefer not to ask anymore, Nev.

 

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I guess if you started on a twin from scratch, knew nothing else, maybe….but yes, twins are expensive if money is a concern. I flew a King Air once in my SA Air Force days, sitting upfront as a pax, I thought the controls had jammed, the ailerons felt so heavy….but I was used to a Harvard which has pretty light controls in fact. As for performance, we’ll again, if money is no concern, a P51 Mustang or F4U Corsair will outperform most twins….yes, for us “I now fly just for fun” people, the “thing” that creates lift under our aircraft wings, is not intricate airflow, causing changing flow velocities, with the subsequent pressure changes….but buckets of cold hard cash….and lots of it!🙃I would suggest, train on a single, then if you must, buy a Cherokee 6 or a Cessna 206, light twin size, with half the cost and complexity.

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You know you're old, when the news reader reads out an item about "an elderly man" - and you realise the person they're referring to, is 10 yrs younger than you are! :classic_sad:

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Yeah, I remember being an age when 60 was an impossible concept. You know your old when your 20 year old daughter comments in wonder how your eyebrows have gone grey!🥺

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On 28/09/2021 at 7:51 AM, Vertical said:

Reminds me of other famous last words:  “…watch this!”😳

Australian version......"Hold my beer...." 😃

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On 27/09/2021 at 12:56 PM, facthunter said:

Flying can be fun whatever the plane. It's an office with a view. 

 

This is the comment that you should pay attention too, IMHO, it's by far the most accurate statement in this thread.

 

Annecdote; my other hobby is sailing off the beach dinghys, and i've progressed through several classes getting faster and more complicated each time, with the culmination being an 18ft skiff. I've raced at state and national level - I'm never going to win at this level, but finished in the top ten regularly.

Wind back 10 years when I was teaching my daughter sailing in a high performance skiff, great fun. But, she got a boyfriend and I soon found myself on the beach with nothing to sail. So I started sailing one of the clubs training boats, ie beginner level stuff.

I had just as much fun sailing and racing that boat as I did the skiffs.

It's not what you are sailing/flying, it's just being out there doing it that is enjoyable.

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I think all real pilots would like sailing. It's similar in many ways and a catamaran in strong wind and a swell is pretty exciting. I used to hire  a Paper tiger or Hoby Cat when I had a stopover at Darwin and there were less Crocs than Now. Nev

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51 minutes ago, RossK said:

Australian version......"Hold my beer...." 😃

Yeah, if someone offers me a ride in their aircraft….I always actually say to them, I DO NOT want to hear them say to me during the light….”Watch this” or “Check this out”. I want to decide on my own “watching and checking”!

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As someone who recently went through the process if getting their pilots licence and buying a plane there's a few things that you might want to consider.

  • Find an instructor who you're comfortable with and do the training from start to finish in one or two runs. The whole couple of times a month doesn't work as you need to constantly reinforce skills and life gets in the way and suddenly you're back to square one.
  • Do the theory and exames first, it might give you a clue about your ability to complete the program.
  • What the mission, do you want to cover distance, visit family, fly with your partner, fly over mountains and oceans, short field operations or hard long strips.
  • Do you want to go further with your qualifications IFR, night operations, fly above weather

I ended up going down the path of a centreline twin, experimental as I have a family dispersed around the country, run a business where I sometimes need to travel to rural areas at short notice, and wanted the reliability of twin engines without the problems associated with asymmetric thrust.

Flight schools may push you towards longer training periods however that's to suit their cashflows and resource constraints rather than your needs.

 

Personally I think that the experimental pathway is a much better approach simply because it's the part of the aviation industry that's thriving. I would have preferred to buy a commercial offering however the industry is moribund and overpriced and sells decades old technology which isn't fit for purpose.

There should be a vintage airplane licence and any plane which doesn't have a completely automated engine management regime should be classified as vintage. The theory about how to manage fuel/air mixtures turbocharger wastegate operations, carb ice, detonation management etc should be relegated to this category.   

 

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I too hired a Hoby Cat in Darwin. There was a hippy type guy on Mindel Beach who rented them out. Great fun.

I fully understand the difficulties of a too complex plane on a too complex airfield. On flight simulator, I was taxying around Orly airport in a Citation and hopelessly out of my depth. The air-traffic controller guy was trying to tell me stuff but  I was too busy avoiding the other planes to do what he said.

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Going the experimental way is obviously a good way to get into high performance or interesting aircraft, but it is not the way to go to learn. You may be lucky to find an instructor who will teach on your experimental, but it has to be yours. That means you commit to a certain aircraft even before you start to learn.

As for age you are old when your kids have retired and your great grandkids are teenagers, don't ask me how I know.

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Not all experimental airplanes are high performance vehicles. While of I know people who learnt to fly in their own experimental aircraft with instructors willing to teach them, the ownership requirement is a significant impediment. While there's a degree of risk involved, there's also risks involved in flying in something that was built by people who are now in their 90s. Does anyone know the average age of certified GA training aircraft used by flight schools in Australia? Jabiru airplanes have been identified as higher risk vehicles to consider training in and require special procedures however people still train in these airplanes. There are also experimental Jabirus which might provide a good training environment.

Essentially it is a risk based decision, current policy precludes the experimental approach unless you are the owner. I'd like to see a policy change where if an experimental plane was available, and you believe the aircraft is sound, and can source an instructor who was willing to teach and also believes the aircraft is sound there should be no bureaucratic impediments to training in said aircraft. I'm not sure if a shared ownership approach could gets around this, ie you buy a share for $X, training in the plane and then sell your share when you complete your training.

 

I know of numerous people who are keen to learn how to fly, however the cost barrier holds and the lack of infrastructure in the region holds them back.

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2 minutes ago, Ian said:

Jabiru airplanes have been identified as higher risk vehicles to consider training in and require special procedures however people still train in these airplanes.

What is the higher risk? Is it on all models?

 

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