UPRT

[Flightrite]

I see that the Airlines will be required to incorporate UPRT (upset recovery training) in their training syllabus. Only effects operations with greater than 30 seats. The article (Aust Aviation) also does mention GA (private & commercial) won’t benefit as they are not being considered.

I believe it’s too easy to get a plane ticket at the GA level, always has been so this will be interesting to see if this does filter down to the bottom end, probably not.

 

[onetrack]

The fact that a sizeable percentage of crashes in recent years where supposedly competent AT pilots couldn't even identify an upset flying condition, let alone recover from it, means this training should have been introduced as a priority.

Then there the ones who initiated an upset, then took too long to identify the upset, or incorrectly identified the type of upset, or initiated an incorrect response to the upset.

I think we can exonerate the crews in the case of the 2 x 737 MAX crashes, hardly a pilot knew how the 737 MAX MCAS system actually worked.

[facthunter]

it's worth reading the Boeing test pilots comments about the plane. Just google it .It's recent. Nev

[Flightrite]

The Max scenario has a lot of corruption behind it, commercial pressure at play!

Training has always been a box ticking exercise riddled with ‘mates for mates’ thrown in! Commercialism drives any competitive industry!

[Thruster88]

I think there was faulty engineering as well. The system should never have had the ability to drive the trim out of the normal range, certainly not all the way to the end. It is not that way now.

Edited October 19, 2021 by Thruster88

[facthunter]

The plane is unstable because of the larger engine and where it's located. It should have been a total redesign as the U/c was too short and there's no room for a longer one to go. and retract. They were freaked out about the Airbus competition. Now they've destroyed Boeings good name but some earlier 737's had rudder malfunctions where the rudder went the opposite way when extreme cold distorted some of the hydraulic actuator mechanism. Nev

[Flightrite]

Airbus, way of the future......and that makes grubby Boeing mad knowing they have fallen behind! 

[facthunter]

They have had increasing quality control issues now for years. They set up little shows with new hires and sub the work out.. Use trammels indstead of CAD .Rivet holes miss by crazy distances.  Anyone noticing shoddy aspects  and saying anything got moved on. A strong anti union push. ALL this produced just what could be expected. The losses must be enormous. .. Smart arse management like  that emerge now and again in the US and take a gamble with many things just for PROFIT above safety/reputation/ ethics. Nev

[djpacro]

On 19/10/2021 at 8:54 AM, Flightrite said:

I believe it’s too easy to get a plane ticket at the GA level, always has been so this will be interesting to see if this does filter down to the bottom end, probably not.

 

EASA is incorporating basic UPRT in their PPL and so is the USA FAA to some extent. The FAA revised their Airplane Flying Handbook a few years ago https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/airplane_handbook/media/06_afh_ch4.pdf

 

EASA is leading the way with UPRT in simulators as well as their on-aeroplane advanced UPRT course mandated https://www.easa.europa.eu/faq/44870

 

I believe that CASA is currently looking at just UPRT in simulators so a long way behind EASA. Incidentally, CASA has just discovered that NACA's 1935 standard spin recovery method is not really applicable to current training types https://www.casa.gov.au/files/advisory-circulars-61-16-spin-avoidance-stall-recovery-trainingpdf 

 

Pilots at the bottom end may choose to do UPRT. Consider https://www.aviationsafetymagazine.com/features/undoing-an-upset/ but noting that quote attributed to Patty Wagstaff "is on record as saying that upset recovery “is just aerobatics;” to one well-versed in that discipline, no attitudes are really unusual." I was at this event when she said that however she said a whole lot more - https://www.flyingmag.com/ntsb-forum-looks-into-loss-control-inflight/ An aerobatic course is not UPRT as explained by that FAA handbook above, nor is it a new name for the common EMT courses.

[facthunter]

Those throw away lines confuse things. IF you put an aeroplane into a situation it's something you've deliberately done so getting out of it as already set up and continuous. IF you experience an upset you have to determine what situation you are in First, then take appropriate action to get out of it SAFELY with regard to controllability, height and airframe loads and even not endangering aircraft at lower levels if that is appropriate. . The term Unusual ATTITUDES is not fully descriptive but it's probably good enough now that it's widespread.. It's more of a "situation" and must be treated as such.. High Cruise level upsets must be done in a simulator. and a lot of others as well. Being able to "freeze" the simulator and "see" what you are getting into is invaluable.. Nev

Edited October 21, 2021 by facthunter

[Flightrite]

YesSim training is invaluable, shame not more are avail in Oz at the GA level.
Most upsets are avoidable in the first place. Inattention, skill deficiency and too much box ticking are often the culprits!  
When AF447 took a swim into the Atlantic in ‘09 that shook up the industry BUT humans soon slip back into their old habits!