Upset Recovery Training and Stalls.

[Garfly]

4 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

 

4 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

  On 10/12/2021 at 12:37 PM, Garfly said:

I don't think I've ever known an instructor to 'teach' that pulling back on the stick (always) makes you go up.  Lived experience does, though, because it mostly works that way

True-ish.. In straight and level flight, thrust = drag at that angle of attack. At normal angles of attack, when you raise the nose, you will have an increase angle of attack and thanks to inertia, the airspeed will hold for a bit .......  ////

 

                                                                    EXPAND QUOTE TO READ IT

 

All true and good, Jerry.  (But your quoting of my post might be a bit misconstrue-ish ;- )  

 

Here's some context lest anyone take me wrong on the subject of 'pulling back' - and what it does.   APen had said (in part):

On 10/12/2021 at 11:00 AM, APenNameAndThatA said:

       ////

....  As a side note I am irritated that one of the FIRST THINGS people are taught that if you pull back on the stick, the aircraft climbs. It usually does, but not when you really need it to.    .....

On which I commented:

On 10/12/2021 at 12:37 PM, Garfly said:

I don't think I've ever known an instructor to 'teach' that pulling back on the stick (always) makes you go up.  Lived experience does, though, because it mostly works that way.  But that's the whole point, I suppose, of upset recovery training; unlearning ingrained muscle memory.

It's like advanced driver training teaches that more braking ≄ more stopping, in all situations.  Yet we still hear of even very experienced pilots pulling back in panic to save themselves. .....

And just the other day, in a different thread, I opined:

 

"It tells me that it could happen to me.   

It warns me that I MUST heed Crisis Checklist items:

#1:  Don't Panic  ... and, oh, yeah,

#2: Fly the Plane  ... and maybe

#3: Pulling back doesn't make the ground go away."

 

 

To remove all doubt, I will post this video here for the third time (for anyone interested).  It's one I like to review, myself, at least once a year in the hope I will overcome the panic reflex if ever I need to. There aren't many second chances.  I don't think it's further instruction in aerodynamics that we need. If we must take wing, we must learn to think - or feel - more like birds and less like apes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 4, 2022 by Garfly

[Jerry_Atrick]

@Garfly - apols, squire. Didn't mean to implicate your post - as the thread had moved on to vortex /wake turbulence, picked yours text to bring context to my post.. I should have been clearer...

 

JA

[Yenn]

Wake turbulence doesn't have to be caused by a large aircraft' A friend of mine flew his Challenger through my wake from the Corby, which is quite a lot smaller and lighter. He got a very rude shock.

The wing loading is the thing, not just weight.

[facthunter]

You'll hit your own wake doing steep turns most times if you fly accurately. Nev

[Garfly]

A reminder here about not yanking and banking - at the same time."

 

[pmccarthy]

On 4/8/2022 at 3:34 PM, Garfly said:

A reminder here about not yanking and banking - at the same time

You would need a split screen to get porn and Westpac apps running at the same time.

[facthunter]

Yanking on the controls is not a term I've ever heard used until now. I doubt it's value or relevance. Nev

[Garfly]

1 hour ago, facthunter said:

Yanking on the controls is not a term I've ever heard used until now. I doubt it's value or relevance. Nev

 

Yes, 'Don't yank and bank' sounds weird. The advice is surely better conveyed as 'Do not apply excessive up-elevator forces whilst simultaneously making large aileron deflections.' 

 

And don't get me started on the old and bold.   ;- )

 

Yanking And Banking

Rolling G forces-pitching and banking at the same time-can overstress the airframe. Instead, do one, then the other.

https://www.aviationsafetymagazine.com/features/yanking-and-banking/

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 6, 2022 by Garfly

[Yenn]

Yes VNe is based on one deflection at a time and is no guarantee that the airframe will stand up to two deflections. A Cessna might I think because very little seems to happen with full deflection of a control for a short time, whereas some of our lighter recreational and also high performance planes deflect immediately.

[facthunter]

This does apply to quite a few Cessna's  which were rolled into a bank at  too high an airspeed  and shed a wing due to twist loads on top of "G" loads. I'm pretty sure a Cessna would flick roll but wouldn't take the stresses on the structure. it's certainly not designed to do so. The Tiger moth fuselage was strengthened to permit this with some planes. Nev

[APenNameAndThatA]

On 10/12/2021 at 11:37 AM, Garfly said:

I don't think I've ever known an instructor to 'teach' that pulling back on the stick (always) makes you go up.  Lived experience does, though, because it mostly works that way.  But that's the whole point, I suppose, of upset recovery training; unlearning ingrained muscle memory.

It's like advanced driver training teaches that more braking ≄ more stopping, in all situations.  Yet we still hear of even very experienced pilots pulling back in panic to save themselves.  Anyway, great move to do that course.

Im not saying you’re wrong, but this is page 18 of Bob Tait’s Volume 1 of RPL/PPL. “Pulling back on the control column … higher nose attitude” What he said was true except for stalls, spins, spiral dives and inverted flight. It matters because what you learn first sticks. 

Edited August 6, 2022 by APenNameAndThatA

[APenNameAndThatA]

On 4/2/2022 at 7:40 AM, Jerry_Atrick said:

True-ish.. In straight and level flight, thrust = drag at that angle of attack. At normal angles of attack, when you raise the nose, you will have an increase angle of attack and thanks to inertia, the airspeed will hold for a bit. With the increase angle of attach and the same air mollecules going past, you will enter a climb. At that angle of attack (assuming a small increase), you may have excess thrust and be able to maintain the climb, although likely, to maintain the climb if pulling back the elevator at cruise, you will have to up the throttle or reduce the AoA slightly. Of course, you can be straight and level with a nose high attitude and the throttle rammed to the firewall.. I wouldn't pull back the control column at this stage, and I have no more thrust to apply - so to climb, counterintuitively, I have to ease up on the control column slightly and reduce the AoA.

 

Of course, I am talking fixed pitch props..

 

In the PPL syllabus (and I am assuming the RAA), you are taught when entering a climb or descent, power, attitude, trim.. and when levelling off, attitude, power trim I try and follow it, but don't always.. but invariably the change in AoA of lower powered a/c means at some stage you have to adjust the power. But power is the rate of ascent/descent control, and elevator is the airspeed control (within normal parameters of flight in piston engine aircraft, anyway).

 

 

Moral of the story - don't bleedin' well use the elevator for the climb or the descent - use the power first.. then get your airspeed with the elevator, then trim.. or at least that's how I have been taught.. (of course, minor deviations in height/altitude - yeah go for the elevator).

 

Re wake/vortex turbulence - the aircraft in front doesn't have to be too much bigger. Unfortunately, the PPL theory alludes to them aircraft having to be a lot bigger. I believe I suffered a wake turbulence problem on very late finals into Moorabbin while I was a student - and in a PA28 from memory (could have been a C150/152). I was bang on my speed (for once!) and there was a twin in front of me. No idea what type; bigger than an Navajo I think, but smaller than a king air (maybe a small one??). Well, I must have flown under its flight path because out of no where, my left wing decided it couldn't be bothered flying anymore and scared the living poop out of a solo-ing student. I was landing from the north ont rwy 18L, so coming on over the park (Kingswood park??) on a mild day with very light if any wind. So thermals or shear should not have been a problem. Scared the living carp pout of me, tbut thankfully, I read a book called "All About Stalls and Spins"  by Everett Gentry (a book I recommend) and forgot turning the control column and used rudder and judicious amounts of power.. I am sure it was wake turbulence, but thankfully not intense enough to spin me into the ground like this - which was in front of an AN2.:

 

[Edit] BTW, I don't blame the pilot for using aileron.. if you have used up all your options.. try something else (no matter how unlikely it is to get you out of the situation.. The state of mind at the time is such that what have you got to lose.

I wonder if you would have been better off using rudder and aileron to maintain coordinated flight? Of course, aileron alone would have been worst. 

[Garfly]

1 hour ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

Im not saying you’re wrong, but this is page 18 of Bob Tait’s Volume 1 of RPL/PPL. “Pulling back on the control column … higher nose attitude” What he said was true except for stalls, spins, spiral dives and inverted flight. It matters because what you learn first sticks. 

I don't see anything amiss with what the book says.  It doesn't say "pulling back is what makes you go up". 

In my experience instructors are always at pains to point out that it's the throttle wot makes you climb - not the elevator (nomenclature notwithstanding ;- )

 

But yes, some things are drilled into ab initio flyers that do need to be undrilled, a bit, later, but I suppose it could hardly be otherwise.  Another example might be the exaggerated fear of banking instilled in beginners (clearly for good reasons).  It's often said that excessive bank-shyness can lead to the dangerous habit of ruddering around the base to final turn.  In any case, this is why advanced training - such as you did - is such a good idea.  I suppose all learning requires some unlearning along the way.  After all, what Jupiter is allowed, might not be permitted the cattle. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 6, 2022 by Garfly

[APenNameAndThatA]

13 hours ago, Garfly said:

I don't see anything amiss with what the book says.  It doesn't say "pulling back is what makes you go up". 

In my experience instructors are always at pains to point out that it's the throttle wot makes you climb - not the elevator (nomenclature notwithstanding ;- )

 

But yes, some things are drilled into ab initio flyers that do need to be undrilled, a bit, later, but I suppose it could hardly be otherwise.  Another example might be the exaggerated fear of banking instilled in beginners (clearly for good reasons).  It's often said that excessive bank-shyness can lead to the dangerous habit of ruddering around the base to final turn.  In any case, this is why advanced training - such as you did - is such a good idea.  I suppose all learning requires some unlearning along the way.  After all, what Jupiter is allowed, might not be permitted the cattle. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What’s wrong is that the book says that pulling back on the stick lifts the nose. It does, except in the emergencies when pulling back on the stick does the opposite. 🙄

[facthunter]

Pulling the stick back increases the wings angle of attack. AoA (to the relative airflow) determines whether you stall or not.  Nev

[Garfly]

On 04/02/2022 at 8:40 AM, Jerry_Atrick said:

Re wake/vortex turbulence - the aircraft in front doesn't have to be too much bigger ... I believe I suffered a wake turbulence problem on very late finals into Moorabbin while I was a student ... there was a twin in front of me ... thankfully, I read a book called "All About Stalls and Spins"  by Everett Gentry ... and forgot turning the control column and used rudder and judicious amounts of power.. I am sure it was wake turbulence, but thankfully not intense enough to spin me into the ground  ...  if you have used up all your options.. try something else (no matter how unlikely it is to get you out of the situation.

13 hours ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

I wonder if you would have been better off using rudder and aileron to maintain coordinated flight? Of course, aileron alone would have been worst. 

 

Yeah, well according to the test-pilot in the AN2 vs. Robin DR400 video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktqo2Mqqdlk ) and also Scott Perdue in the A320 vs. SR22 one ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q16rdw6oUEE&t=658s ) if you happen to fly into the core of a strong vortex close to the ground there's nothing much to be done (like rearranging the deck chairs in the washing machine.  ;- )

 

But in an upset where there is time to recover, Perdue has some interesting analysis and tips in this one:
 

 

 

 

[Garfly]

58 minutes ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

What’s wrong is that the book says that pulling back on the stick lifts the nose. It does, except in the emergencies when pulling back on the stick does the opposite. 🙄

Yes, which is why Perdue in the video above says we must push when we're surprised to find ourselves nose-low hanging from the straps.

But any student doing Lesson One  "Effects of Controls" will have nowhere, yet, to put that knowledge.  Insisting on it so soon would put 'em in a pedagogical spin.

In the end, all learning is self-teaching.  And no matter what your instructor or text book has said about what the elevator does, it is only your muscle memory that will determine how you act in a crisis.  And it's not your instructor who is to blame for your muscles thinking that pulling will make the ground go away.  Every $100 hamburger run you've done since passing your test will imbed that idea. As Perdue says you need to do upset training (and re-training) so that your muscles will do the right thing - quick enough - to save the day, in an emergency.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 7, 2022 by Garfly

[Garfly]

This 2-part video does a pretty good job of explaining wake turbulence and how to avoid it.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFhD2W1UeLo

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ae5jAhQcmqo

 

 

[APenNameAndThatA]

On 7/8/2022 at 11:49 AM, Garfly said:

Yes, which is why Perdue in the video above says we must push when we're surprised to find ourselves nose-low hanging from the straps.

But any student doing Lesson One  "Effects of Controls" will have nowhere, yet, to put that knowledge.  Insisting on it so soon would put 'em in a pedagogical spin.

In the end, all learning is self-teaching.  And no matter what your instructor or text book has said about what the elevator does, it is only your muscle memory that will determine how you act in a crisis.  And it's not your instructor who is to blame for your muscles thinking that pulling will make the ground go away.  Every $100 hamburger run you've done since passing your test will imbed that idea. As Perdue says you need to do upset training (and re-training) so that your muscles will do the right thing - quick enough - to save the day, in an emergency.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I agree that there would be nowhere to put it the way things are currently taught, which, IIRC is primary and secondary effects of controls (in the pre-flight briefing) and straight and level fight (in the actual lesson). 

 

I suggest that the earliest briefing be about the elevator and main wing, rather than about all the controls. Start by discussing the elevator and the effect on angle of attack. Then mention inverted flight. The discuss the critical angle of attack and stalls. Then mention spins as a special type of stall. Then, during the flight, don't worry about the rudder and ailerons but worry about angle of attack. See how the nose comes up as the AOA increases? Do you want to do a stall? Yes? See how the stick coming back makes the nose go down? 

 

On of the flying Youtubers talks about the laws of learning. One of the laws is the law of primacy. That is, what you learn first, you learn best. If you teach the student right from the start that the nose going up when you pull back on the stick is just a special case, they will know it forever. I also agree with what you said about muscle memory. That is important, too. I also mentally rehearse, from time to time, as I am going about my normal day, easing back pressure, and moving the stick forward quickly. 

 

The bottom line is that the solution is to start off teaching the elevator rather than beginning with a more superficial treatment of all three controls. Also, if you started off with the elevator and AOA, when you went to teach ailerons, you could explain how the aileron can stall by increasing the AOA and thereby stop the habit of picking up a wing with ailerons before the habit started, or at least start down that path. 

[facthunter]

Sorry, there's so many factual errors there and wrong assumptions I don't know where to start. Get sources of more reliability. Nev

[Garfly]

8 minutes ago, facthunter said:

Sorry, there's so many factual errors there and wrong assumptions I don't know where to start. Get sources of more reliability. Nev

Can you be more specific?  PenName's argument seems more pedagogical in nature than aeronautical - per se.  Is that what you're disagreeing with?

Edited August 9, 2022 by Garfly

[facthunter]

At the moment I can hardly type at all. I'm not the only one here who contributes to these issues. It requires extensive cover to respond to. I'm not referring to your words  Nev

Edited August 9, 2022 by facthunter

[Yenn]

Maybe others don't contribute is because the arguments proffered are ridiculous.

[Garfly]

Just now, Yenn said:

Maybe others don't contribute is because the arguments proffered are ridiculous.

Can you be more specific?

[Roundsounds]

On 7/8/2022 at 11:49 AM, Garfly said:

Yes, which is why Perdue in the video above says we must push when we're surprised to find ourselves nose-low hanging from the straps.

But any student doing Lesson One  "Effects of Controls" will have nowhere, yet, to put that knowledge.  Insisting on it so soon would put 'em in a pedagogical spin.

In the end, all learning is self-teaching.  And no matter what your instructor or text book has said about what the elevator does, it is only your muscle memory that will determine how you act in a crisis.  And it's not your instructor who is to blame for your muscles thinking that pulling will make the ground go away.  Every $100 hamburger run you've done since passing your test will imbed that idea. As Perdue says you need to do upset training (and re-training) so that your muscles will do the right thing - quick enough - to save the day, in an emergency.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Have you paid attention to Perdue’s lookout, specifically the lack of it. At 10:13 he actually points at his EFB and says it’s clear! What about the airplanes without ADSB out?