Filling high-wing tanks

[skippydiesel]

Blueadventure - I am pretty sure the Airflow is a Holly knock off and a vane type positive displacement  pump - mine may not be from Airflow but is the twin of yours down to the flow rates.

 

My set up is a bit different : my pump sits on a rigid hollow suction spike (irrigating riser) that will pump from any 20/10 L container including collapsible fuel bladders. I started with a flexible suction hose but found I needed to hold the pump in place - now it will stay in position until removed. The rigid pipe unscrews by hand for compact storage/travel.  All openings have plugs to prevent contamination & any odour leakage. Like your set up, my control (shielded) switch is on a long lead allowing me to monitor inflow/level - switch off is almost instant fuel flow stop - switch on provides self priming within seconds and as you attest 20L/3.5 minutes delivery. When I started I had an in line filter on the delivery side - had a dramatic negative effect on flow rate so also like you I have always used a filter funnel to achieve best delivery with clean fuel. I can use aircraft power (through an Anderson Plug) or separate battery power through alligator clips. I have pumped both petrol & diesel with equal efficiency. Below is an old pic, the switch is now shielded, all wires to/from the pump are secured to the pump body  - for the est its much the same. My apologies I miss remembered - my system is now about 4 years old. Th topic comes under "Spill Resistant Refueling" June 2018 and pretty much mirrors todays conversation.

 

[Blueadventures]

16 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

Blueadventure - I am pretty sure the Airflow is a Holly knock off and a vane type positive displacement  pump - mine may not be from Airflow but is the twin of yours down to the flow rates.

 

My set up is a bit different : my pump sits on a rigid hollow suction spike (irrigating riser) that will pump from any 20/10 L container including collapsible fuel bladders. I started with a flexible suction hose but found I needed to hold the pump in place - now it will stay in position until removed. The rigid pipe unscrews by hand for compact storage/travel.  All openings have plugs to prevent contamination & any odour leakage. Like your set up, my control (shielded) switch is on a long lead allowing me to monitor inflow/level - switch off is almost instant fuel flow stop - switch on provides self priming within seconds and as you attest 20L/3.5 minutes delivery. When I started I had an in line filter on the delivery side - had a dramatic negative effect on flow rate so also like you I have always used a filter funnel to achieve best delivery with clean fuel. I can use aircraft power (through an Anderson Plug) or separate battery power through alligator clips. I have pumped both petrol & diesel with equal efficiency. Below is an old pic, the switch is now shielded, all wires to/from the pump are secured to the pump body  - for the est its much the same. My apologies I miss remembered - my system is now about 4 years old. Th topic comes under "Spill Resistant Refueling" June 2018 and pretty much mirrors todays conversation.

 

Yes my two ends plug together after use and seal closed.  Used clear tube to sight fuel emptying back down after stopping flow. Switch is in a comfortable hand grip.  My images are old and will update the images.  I recon that yours would be improved with a 90 degree elbow at end to improve location into fill port.  

[Kyle Communications]

I have a 20 litre clean plastic drum with a tap. I fill that drum with my fuel on the ground via a Mr Funnel so i know the fuel in there is super clean. then i lift the drum on top of the wing and the tap sits directly over the tank hole..then I just turn on the tap.

 

I am thinking though of some sort of pump. They have some fuel type ones now that are like a stick and you drop it into a drum..but you really still need to decant it via the Mr funnel. mogas and a pump is coming to our airfield soon so that will make life easier

[skippydiesel]

11 hours ago, Kyle Communications said:

I

I am thinking though of some sort of pump. They have some fuel type ones now that are like a stick and you drop it into a drum..but you really still need to decant it via the Mr funnel. mogas and a pump is coming to our airfield soon so that will make life easier

When I did my research for the build of the Skippy Mk2 (2018) you could get in tank fuel pumps that would fit through a standard jerry can fill point BUT the flow rates were no where near what I have now.

 

[skippydiesel]

13 hours ago, Blueadventures said:

.................... I recon that yours would be improved with a 90 degree elbow at end to improve location into fill port.  

May be but my experience is that the flow rate is so vigorous, it takes a human guidance to prevent spillage from the funnel.

[Neil_S]

16 hours ago, rodgerc said:

These work a treat….I use the 10L version but younger and fitter folk could save time with the 20L

 

I have been using one of these for several years with no problem - just fill from a 10 litre container using a Mr Funnel to eliminate any water or contaminants....then put into the filler neck on the plane. No issue with overflow as it automatically stops when the fuel level reaches the nozzle. I think they are $69.

 

Cheers,

Neil

Edited December 24, 2022 by Neil_S
Correct my spelling!

[Blueadventures]

16 minutes ago, Neil_S said:

 

I have been using one of these for several years with no problem - just fill from a 10 litre container using a Mr Funnel to eliminate any water or contaminants....then put into the filler neck on the plane. No issue with overflow as it automatically stops when the fuel level reaches the nozzle. I think they are $69.

 

Cheers,

Neil

They are good.  One is on my list to get to top up tanks to 100% full for certain trips.  With the powered pump I'm only filling 20 liters at a time into tanks of known quantity.  As usually only flying with partial filled tanks it's never an issue regards possibility of an over fill and spill.

[trailer]

15 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

 

My set up is a bit different : my pump sits on a rigid hollow suction spike (irrigating riser) that will pump from any 20/10 L container including collapsible fuel bladders. I started with

Would a 1a push to talk switch be okay to run this setup? I really like it as a solution. The ptt style switch would be useful if I dropped the switch or preventing overfill fumbling with the off switch.

[Kenlsa]

23 hours ago, Garfly said:

This (AA) battery powered unit from Easyflo works well for me.

 

https://easyflo.com.au/

A mate uses this model and it works very well. I will get one for my Colt when it is finished 

Ken

[skippydiesel]

1 hour ago, trailer said:

Would a 1a push to talk switch be okay to run this setup? I really like it as a solution. The ptt style switch would be useful if I dropped the switch or preventing overfill fumbling with the off switch.

Any make & brake will do the job. Not so sure about the suitability of a 1A. JayCar has a good selection of switches including "Momentry" toggle type 20 Amp. Safety is the key concern - make sure the switch is fully sealed and always use a fuse.

Edited December 25, 2022 by skippydiesel

[RFguy]

I have a twin filter Mr Funnel "F15" and it keeps up with a 20 litre jerry being poured in  without pause.  ( 20 seconds) ?

The twin is rated at  56 lpm.  I would recommend nothing less. 

 

The single filter versions of Mr Funnel would not keep up.

hopw about this with built in filter

https://facet-purolator.com/specifications/#ds-open-popup-57   alas only 50 gph

or a couple of the 50 gph cube facets.

or somethign higher flow :
https://www.scintex.com.au/collections/12v-petrol-pumps/products/high-flow-fuel-pump
 

or, the real deal... a filler !
https://www.scintex.com.au/collections/12v-petrol-pumps/products/12v-petrol-pump

 

 

Edited December 25, 2022 by RFguy

[facthunter]

With most of the planes we fly the idea of putting much weight at all on the top surface of any wing doesn't appeal to me.  It's not designed with that in mind.  Nev

[Blueadventures]

8 minutes ago, RFguy said:

I have a twin filter Mr Funnel "F15" and it keeps up with a 20 litre jerry being poured in  without pause.  ( 20 seconds) ?

The twin is rated at  56 lpm.  I would recommend nothing less. 

 

The single filter versions of Mr Funnel would not keep up.

We're not an F1 or Bathurst pit crew so speed not necessary to me.  Just ease of filling. On a step ladder hold up and over a 20 litre carry can is a bit uncomfortable so like the pump method at about 5 to 7 litres per minute.

[Flightrite]

Buy a low wing, easy fix😂😉

[facthunter]

Read my post #2 on this thread. I like simplicity and it would only take 1 cup of fuel appropriately dispersed to blow a house up..  Nev

[skippydiesel]

4 hours ago, RFguy said:

I have a twin filter Mr Funnel "F15" and it keeps up with a 20 litre jerry being poured in  without pause.  ( 20 seconds) ?

The twin is rated at  56 lpm.  I would recommend nothing less. 

 

The single filter versions of Mr Funnel would not keep up.

hopw about this with built in filter

https://facet-purolator.com/specifications/#ds-open-popup-57   alas only 50 gph

or a couple of the 50 gph cube facets.

or somethign higher flow :
https://www.scintex.com.au/collections/12v-petrol-pumps/products/high-flow-fuel-pump
 

or, the real deal... a filler !
https://www.scintex.com.au/collections/12v-petrol-pumps/products/12v-petrol-pump

 

 

Maate: Check out the prices;

 

I have two Mr Filters - not bad but I also have a converted off the shelf funnel with a 120Mu filter in the bottom, lid both top & bottom. I find the Mr Filter products expensive, unstable - they don't sit well in the fill point and have no way of sealing.

 

The 50 gal/hr one is slow compared with the Holly copies & probably more expensive

 

Syntax No 1  is just a Holly copy that can be had for a fraction of the $300 asking price

Syntax No 2 is also pretty pricy. but great for the base/home fuel delivery system but far too heavy to consider as a travel accessory 

Edited December 25, 2022 by skippydiesel

[trailer]

On 24/12/2022 at 7:57 PM, skippydiesel said:

my control (shielded) switch is on a long lead allowing me

Skippy, a stupid question, but how do you shield a switch in this application?

[spacesailor]

"  buy a low wing " .

With retractable gear ! , then you can stand over it , when ' wheels up ' .

spacesailor

[skippydiesel]

10 hours ago, trailer said:

Skippy, a stupid question, but how do you shield a switch in this application?

As a simple farmer(retired) my understanding is the danger is the combination of fuel vapour & a spark resulting in ignition.

 

Separating the two components, will prevent or at least minimise, the chance of ignition, is the way to go.

 

The only practical things you can do about fuel vapour, are minimise spillages (good equipment & technique)  and have plenty of fresh air (hanger doors open or move aircraft outside).

 

As for the spark (when you switch off/ on); I would start with a good quality (terminals/mechanism may not wear so rapidly, have strong positive action, be of generous proportion and thus minimise arcing/spark) switch with more than required amp rating and if available sealed (as in prevention of fuel vapour entry) mechanism. If unable to find a factory sealed switch the next best thing is to coat/wrap as much of the switch body as you can.  Coating with paintable insulating (rubber) material is probably the best followed by carefully applied insulating tape. A button style switch could be completely sealed with a flexible membrane over the button. Its probably not possible to completely seal a toggle type switch.

 

As an added precaution I keep the switch in my left hand  (I am right handed) away from the exposed fuel.

 

Note: All of the observations/advise are without any technical research or training in the field - just seem to me to be a good idea.

[RFguy]

The F15 Mr funnel was a bit over a hundred dollars from memory. not a big price tag......

Use a collar of 6"  PVC pipe to have it sit square and stable.

You need IS grade switches, or a solid state switch.  or the switch a long way upwind of each end of  the fueling .

 

A switch potted inside a box should be OK. 
Absolutely NO 'figure 8 ' cable (bonded along a centre line) , and no multicore cable without stainless steel braid and appropriate specifications. 

Fuse has to be IS rated or encapsulated also....

Consult AS/NZS 60079 part 11. ......part 14,  18 and part 31 are also applicable.

(yes I do this for a living)
https://law.resource.org/pub/in/bis/S05/is.iec.60079.11.2006.pdf

 

 

 

 

[skippydiesel]

RFguy,

 

https://alemlube.com.au/web/product/product_detail/8cea5d0f-2591-4cf8-a603-5f042e5c13cf

 

Alemlube do a range of "Clean" funnels with screw caps top/bottom. I have fitted one with an internal (press fit) 120mu filter, another with a sown conical fabric fuel filter cloth. 

 

The funnels are great,  a good $80-90 heaper than F15 Mr Funnel (even when fitted with filtration), seal against dirt and odours BUT do not have the water trap feature of a Mr Funnel.

 

For aviation the water trap feature is nice but given that internal tank condensation, is a likely a greater contributor to water in fuel, than water entry when refueling the Mr Funnel feature contributes little above the quality dirt filtration.

 

In the 10 years or so that I have been using my modified Alenlubes I have never had a water problem and have been amazed by the dirt that my filter catch in the servo fuel.

 

All great advise about the switches.

 

What is so heinous about figure 8 cable???

 

As for the remainder; We are talking 12v intermittent,  private use - the over specification of industrial/professional grade stuff is great, in its place, that is the industrial/work environment and while legally sound, is "over the top" for my needs.

 

Edited December 25, 2022 by skippydiesel

[jackc]

Speaking of fuel tank condensation, for machines on the ground, I often give them a dose of Methylated Spirits to solve that problem. 

[RFguy]

Figure 8 cable is made in a single extrusion process, the amount of insulation between the pair of wires varies !

 

you want to use a two pair insulated wire and overall sheath.

like this, 

https://www.jaycar.com.au/7-5-amp-2-core-tinned-dc-power-cable-sold-per-metre/p/WH3057

 

or WH3049 - 10m Handy Pack slightly cheaper.

[RFguy]

A GOOD cable is that used for wiring up solar panels

Decent insulation, current carrying and a tough  sheath

Some are twin and double insulated, with the overall double as a bonded  fig8 which is OK.

anythign complying to IEC62930 is OK. 

double insulated Bonded sheath fig8  zipper pair.


twin and overall sheath

both good

 

[jackc]

All my cable supplies come from Cooldrive in 30m rolls, made by Jaylec.