Filling high-wing tanks

[RFguy]

Cooldrive seems like a site and business very high in hype on their website....

[skippydiesel]

43 minutes ago, jackc said:

Speaking of fuel tank condensation, for machines on the ground, I often give them a dose of Methylated Spirits to solve that problem. 

Sounds like a "purgative"😀

[facthunter]

Filling them after use,  used to be THE way of covering this Careful use of fuel drains should pick up water if the drains are located and designed well.  Nev

[jackc]

2 hours ago, RFguy said:

Cooldrive seems like a site and business very high in hype on their website....

I buy Tycab Australian Made cable via Cooldrive, cost more but worth it. Gave  Junkar away a long time ago…..

 

https://www.tycab.com.au/

 

 

 

[Kiwi]

Try one of these. Put drum on wing, turn on and pull nozzle trigger, runs on 2 "d" batteries and lasts for ages.

[Carbon Canary]

G’day Kiwi,

l’ve had my eye on one of these.

What do u reckon they would be like in lifting fuel 1.8m from the ground straight up to a high wing ?

CC

[skippydiesel]

40 minutes ago, Kiwi said:

Try one of these. Put drum on wing, turn on and pull nozzle trigger, runs on 2 "d" batteries and lasts for ages.

Its not much more than a powered syphoned - a jiggler would be just as good, at a fraction of the price AND you still have to lift your 10 -20L up onto the wing.

 

If I am being charitable, I would say that it probably reduces the chances of accidental spillage but at $78-90 that's a lot of dough to spend on a syphon.

[Carbon Canary]

I could envisage hanging a collapsible jerry can on the tiedown point at the top of the strut, and then pumping from there with one of these. This is still uphill so a siphon wouldn’t work. Lifting 17kg of collapsible jerry can to this point beneath the wing is readily doable, and the pumping lift from there would be around 75cm.

[onetrack]

This one (link below) is a real petrol transfer pump. CE rated, approved for petrol transfer from drums and jerrycans.

Available in 12V with 4M lead with alligator clips, or available in 240V/12V as well, with 240V adaptor.

 

It pumps 16L a minute (no doubt measured at equal height transfer levels - but obviously will still be an adequate discharge rate at the height of a high wing tank, from ground level).

The fact that it comes with a decent length of hose, also means you don't have to lift the jerrycan at all, as with nearly all the other cheap transfer pumps.

Perhaps the only drawback is the 38mm suction intake ID - which eliminates the cheaper jerrycans with a small opening.

 

The kicker is - it costs $345 - and no doubt, that leaves a sour taste in Skippys mouth. But as the old story goes - you get what you pay for, there's no free lunch.

 

https://easyflo.com.au/electric-fuel-transfer-drum-pump/?sku=EF-200L-DC

[IBob]

Did a few numbers, and now trying to make sense of them:

 

To lift 1Kg 1m takes 9.8joules.

20L petrol = approx 15Kg

So to lift 20L of petrol 2m theoretically takes 29.4joules.

All very well in theory.

 

A single AA cell supposedly packs 9,000joules.

(and a single alkaline D cell something like 72,000joules)
So no problem, right?

 

Flip now to spec of Easyflow battery powered pump listed earlier in this thread. This uses 4 x AA cells, and is sold as a transfer pump (not a lifting pump). And claims to transfer 400L on one set of batteries.

That number doesn't seem unreasonable to me. But given the disparity between that and the theoretical numbers, there must be huge inefficiencies and losses somewhere.
Or maybe what's left of my brain just shut down for Christmas.......(
 

 

Edited December 26, 2022 by IBob

[Carbon Canary]

20 minutes ago, onetrack said:

This one (link below) is a real petrol transfer pump. CE rated, approved for petrol transfer from drums and jerrycans.

Available in 12V with 4M lead with alligator clips, or available in 240V/12V as well, with 240V adaptor.

 

It pumps 16L a minute (no doubt measured at equal height transfer levels - but obviously will still be an adequate discharge rate at the height of a high wing tank, from ground level).

The fact that it comes with a decent length of hose, also means you don't have to lift the jerrycan at all, as with nearly all the other cheap transfer pumps.

Perhaps the only drawback is the 38mm suction intake ID - which eliminates the cheaper jerrycans with a small opening.

 

The kicker is - it costs $345 - and no doubt, that leaves a sour taste in Skippys mouth. But as the old story goes - you get what you pay for, there's no free lunch.

 

https://easyflo.com.au/electric-fuel-transfer-drum-pump/?sku=EF-200L-DC

Great for hangar fueling out of drums, but not overly portable.

Skip’s solution also uses ship’s power and a fair bit of ingenuity but after all the messing around, did it really cost that much less than $70-$80 ?

[Kiwi]

1 hour ago, Carbon Canary said:

G’day Kiwi,

l’ve had my eye on one of these.

What do u reckon they would be like in lifting fuel 1.8m from the ground straight up to a high wing ?

CC

Only used it for the Piper and car, if you can get it within a metre it would work fine.

[skippydiesel]

28 minutes ago, onetrack said:

This one (link below) is a real petrol transfer pump. CE rated, approved for petrol transfer from drums and jerrycans.

Available in 12V with 4M lead with alligator clips, or available in 240V/12V as well, with 240V adaptor.

 

It pumps 16L a minute (no doubt measured at equal height transfer levels - but obviously will still be an adequate discharge rate at the height of a high wing tank, from ground level).

The fact that it comes with a decent length of hose, also means you don't have to lift the jerrycan at all, as with nearly all the other cheap transfer pumps.

Perhaps the only drawback is the 38mm suction intake ID - which eliminates the cheaper jerrycans with a small opening.

 

The kicker is - it costs $345 - and no doubt, that leaves a sour taste in Skippys mouth. But as the old story goes - you get what you pay for, there's no free lunch.

 

https://easyflo.com.au/electric-fuel-transfer-drum-pump/?sku=EF-200L-DC

The cost has left me weak at the knees but aside from my scrooge like disposition, I make the following observations;

• It is described as a "submersible motor pump" -  to me a submersible is, as the name suggests, submerged in the fluid it is pumping - does it look like a submersible? whoever wrote the specs. need them😀
• Has an "intake filter" - suitable for a range of widely differing fluids - must be a sieve????
• Flow rated at 16L/min - across a number of fluids of differing widely characteristics - no lift/head qualification - what more can I say????
• CE  rated ("conformité européenne")   the CE bit - if so marked mealy means it can be sold within the European Economic Area - rated ??????

 

Way too non specific in the technical info. Reads like a con. I would not risk my $$$$$

 

My bet - its a cheap centrifugal pump that will probably deliver something slightly more than a syphon will, at the same fluid level.

 

Let me know how it works for you in real life. If turns out to me a little gem I will agree "you get what you pay for," but at this stage I would say you gets what you can get good reliable  information on

[Kiwi]

1 hour ago, skippydiesel said:

If I am being charitable, I would say that it probably reduces the chances of accidental spillage 

The original poster stated he has no problem getting the 10 litre drum up high enough, but getting the fuel in the tank is the problem.

 

This is nothing like a siphon and would solve his problem. 

 

[onetrack]

The 12V/240V pump that I linked to, is manufactured by the Dukshin Corp Ltd of Korea. I agree, clearer specifications would be the order of the day, but I think the advertising and specification writing is due to the Korean-English translation, and perhaps a lack of understanding of what the buyer is seeking, by way of specs.

Here's the factory blurb and a YouTube video of the pump (DEP-1702) in operation. It weighs 2.5Kgs, so I don't see where "portability" in an aircraft is a major problem.

The specs here say "16 LPM at water", which I think is supposed to mean at "water level" - i.e. - equal levels between container fuel level and handpiece level.

 

http://www.dukshin.com/eng/03_pro/sub04.php

 

Edited December 26, 2022 by onetrack

[skippydiesel]

4 hours ago, Kiwi said:

The original poster stated he has no problem getting the 10 litre drum up high enough, but getting the fuel in the tank is the problem.

 

This is nothing like a siphon and would solve his problem. 

 

My point is:

There are quite a large number of these battery/12 V so called pumps on the market.  Yes they will deliver a flow, usually with the supply level equal too or higher than delivery point.

Most are likely to be  a cheap high speed motor, running a small low capacity centrifugal pump. Centrifugal pumps self prim with difficulty, have poor lift/head characteristics but can be made cheaply out of fuel resistant materials.

A syphon will deliver a flow when the supply level is higher than the delivery level, using just gravity.

Some people have a problem priming a syphon - these low powered units solve that problem but then so does a jiggler, without power and at a much lower cost.

If you are happy to manually  lift the fuel onto the wing surface (high or low wing) these units may do the refuelling job for you, great!

If you want the fuel "lifted" from ground level to a low/high wing tank, then you are likely to be disappointed - at the very best I would expect an anemic dribble of fuel.

[Garfly]

1 hour ago, skippydiesel said:

If you are happy to manually  lift the fuel onto the wing surface (high or low wing) these units may do the refuelling job for you, great!

If you want the fuel "lifted" from ground level to a low/high wing tank, then you are likely to be disappointed - at the very best I would expect an anemic dribble of fuel.

Nobody's suggesting that this type of pump will lift from ground level so no one is likely to be disappointed on that score.  I find not having to move or manhandle a 20L can once it's up there (on a board across the fuse) simplifies and de-stresses the whole operation.  I used to use a jiggler but I find a small self-contained 6V transfer pump heaps easier.  For a start, both hands become free to manage the outflow and the filter. Mileage may differ.

The OP kicked off with  "I just had another disaster, fuel all over the wing and over me. Does anyone have suggestions for filling high-wing tanks?"  We've probably all been there and some among us are happy to spend a few bucks not to have to go there again. (Replacing a windscreen costs too.)

 

 

Edited December 26, 2022 by Garfly

[skippydiesel]

It seem's strange so many of my friends agonise over obtaining a cost efficient fuel refueling system, then advocate for something that often has a relatively high purchase cost, run's off dry cell batteries and is likely to deliver a marginal (at best) improvement on their existing unsatisfactory (to them) system. All this while the 12V power supply in their aircraft, is not considered as a potential energy source, that can deliver far greater (pumping) efficiencies at lower cost -. c'est la viei

 

I think I have pretty much said all I can.

[IBob]

16 hours ago, IBob said:

Did a few numbers, and now trying to make sense of them:

 

To lift 1Kg 1m takes 9.8joules.

20L petrol = approx 15Kg

So to lift 20L of petrol 2m theoretically takes 29.4joules.

All very well in theory.

 

A single AA cell supposedly packs 9,000joules.

(and a single alkaline D cell something like 72,000joules)
So no problem, right?

 

Flip now to spec of Easyflow battery powered pump listed earlier in this thread. This uses 4 x AA cells, and is sold as a transfer pump (not a lifting pump). And claims to transfer 400L on one set of batteries.

That number doesn't seem unreasonable to me. But given the disparity between that and the theoretical numbers, there must be huge inefficiencies and losses somewhere.
Or maybe what's left of my brain just shut down for Christmas.......(
 

 

Sorry, should have been 294joules (so yes, brain is clearly Christmas fried).
But still a huge disparity..........

Edited December 26, 2022 by IBob

[Student Pilot]

The rotary pump with filter a good basic way of fueling. You can demount the stem and hose/filter for transport. Pumped an estimated 2,000,000 litres in by hand no problems.

[facthunter]

Let's be realistic though. Carrying ANY weight with you that you can avoid is essential.  It's easy to overload most of our stuff.  Nev

[Garfly]

5 minutes ago, facthunter said:

Let's be realistic though. Carrying ANY weight with you that you can avoid is essential.  It's easy to overload most of our stuff.  Nev

Yeah, but SP would have been transporting his rotary pump in (empty) ag-aircraft so not much problem there.

[Blueadventures]

My 12 volt fuel setup mounted on an old laundry trolley is used at my home hangar to ease all my refuelling.  It draws power from either the aircraft or a battery I have on solar charge that is on a small trolley truck and used also if anyone has a flat battery on aircraft or car.

 

In the field I like the 10 liter at a time to refuel and have a small folding step in the aircraft that doubles as a seat to get a bit higher up to pour the fuel in via a Mr Funnel that is carried onboard.

 

10 liters in the container allows better control of the pour at arms length.  Also consider the wind direction so no spill / splash is carried onto the windscreens, as pouring mogas.

 

Cheers

[facthunter]

The example is  not very useful to most of us. Nev.  "Spellcheck is calling me Nevertheless" Brave New  World

[Carbon Canary]

https://www.amazon.com.au/specious-Charging-Delivery-Transfer-Gasoline/dp/B0B9RTCXVP/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?adgrpid=85742440023&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI3PXD18WY_AIVWw4rCh0jJwqdEAAYAiAAEgKItPD_BwE&hvadid=591150119655&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9071776&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=12436409885975332070&hvtargid=kwd-345150442994&hydadcr=22540_362593&keywords=12v+gasoline+transfer+pump&qid=1672102450&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUExWDZTNTJNNzE2UklHJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwOTA5OTEwOTVHNU0zTDhHNEgxJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTEzM1lSRDlTVDhDMDkmd2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGYmYWN0aW9uPWNsaWNrUmVkaXJlY3QmZG9Ob3RMb2dDbGljaz10cnVl
 

 

Well, here is a 12V portable “gasoline” pump that plugs into the cigarette lighter for just over $30. The delivery hose looks suspiciously small diameter, but will apparently deliver 7-8 

L/min. 
Anyone brave enough to see if this is intrinsically safe ??