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djpacro

Stalls

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Posted (edited)

DJP,

 

Great information!

 

One of the extreme turning stalls folks wanted to learn about is the base to final stall/spin scenario.  Always discussed what led up to this situation and how to prevent it, first.


Used to do this maneuver in a Cessna Aerobat at altitude. We would bank at 25 degrees with almost full rudder in the direction of turn with up elevator until the stall broke in the direction of the bank, skidding under the bottom break. The airplane rolls quickly in the direction of the bank, sometimes inverted, and pitches down to almost vertical while entering the spin. When this stall happens in the Aerobat, it happens quickly. It used to take at least 500' to 700' of altitude during recovery. Have had students to enter a spin before recovery because correct control inputs were not used after the stall.

Edited by rideandfly
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In the olden days you have to do a full stall, not a requirement now? I have seen some hairy chested instructor types try to frighten people by doing "Extreme" stalls, not the way to train. I can understand people have given up training after that.

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2 hours ago, Student Pilot said:

In the olden days you have to do a full stall, not a requirement now?

Isn't that the same as you only got a bit pregnant or I only got slightly killed.

And if you ever get into a real spin one day, I hope you're not carrying a pax.

It's only having better safety skills on your part if you are flying sport aircraft or GA to do a course in spin recovery with GA instructor.

Just like engine failures that you practice flying, you might be lucky and never get a real one, but you'll never know until it does happen.  

Will you bet your life on that?

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Posted (edited)

I suppose that full-straight-ahead-wings-level-eyes-forward-power-on and power-off kind of stalls (the ones normally covered in training) almost never occur in real life.

Anyway, they don't tend to sneak up on you and if they do they should be manageable; after all, we've practised the simple art of recovery from them heaps of times.

Turning stalls, on the other hand, are a very different kettle of fish. 

Which is what DJP is on about.

Edited by Garfly
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Yes turning stalls are different to straight ahead, you can show signs of a turning stall without doing a full blown upside down white knucle recovery. The point I'm getting at is if you can recognise the approach of a stall either straight or turning then spin training is unneccesary, CASA must think the same way, that's why spin training is not required. I do think that aerobatic training including spins helps pilots with their skills but it's not for everyone.

Sscbd, there are times when practicing something that is unlikely to happen is dangerous, 2 engine failures on 1 wing on a 707 over Bass Straight is one example, the investigators said it was like practicing to die, you only have to do it once. 

 

 

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Yeah, Stude, but I do think some of the skidded-turn/flick-over aero training that rideandfly describes (above #2) would be very educational for us amateurs.  Probably an experience unlike any other for most recreational pilots ... although quite a few have got to do it once.   ;-(

 

(BTW ... what a beautiful looking Vagabond!)

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Having done stalls and spins as part of GA training many years ago I can remember nothing scary about them. They were lots of fun. The key was knowing that the aeroplane was designed for it and wouldn’t break and that you had heaps of height to recover. I would happily do them today ina suitable aeroplane.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Garfly said:

(BTW ... what a beautiful looking Vagabond!)

Initially started an aerobatic school to teach basic aerobatics with the Aerobat later learning that many of my customers wanted extreme stall, spin, and upset recovery without aerobatic training. Even changed the name of the company to reflect the safety training given. Worked with many CFI candidates at a local CFI school giving stall/spin training.  

 

Taught how to prevent stalls, spins, and upsets, if that failed how to recover from them, too. 

 

Garfly,

 

Thanks for your kind comments about the Vag. I fly low & slow with the Vag over North Carolina and having plenty of fun with the Vag working on becoming a better tail-wheel pilot during retirement.

Edited by rideandfly
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The root of the problem with stalling skills sits squarely with instructor / examiner training and attitudes. Having had the opportunity to fly with a large number of instructors providing them with tailwheel endorsements, I find their level of knowledge and skill to be appalling. I always include upper air general handling as part of the type training before starting the takeoff / landing elements. Often the type used for the tailwheel training exhibits strong adverse yaw tendencies, much greater than the types they have previously flown. I have the trainee complete some coordination exercises to familiarise them with the control inputs required to maintain balance rolling into and out of turns. This often provides me with concern, then there’s the stalling exercises. A large proportion of these instructors become anxious at the thought of straight and level stalling, let alone slipping, skidding or power on stalls. The simulated skidding turn into final is the eye opener for most. I like to think some of these instructors take away some improved knowledge and seek further training around stalling. 

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  IF being upside down is "off your radar" don't fly a plane. You don't have to  desire or do aerobatics but you can get into an unusual attitude due gusts etc in U/L's or even large planes.. It's a part of being in the air and staying there by reacting aerodynamically with it.. You are not on rails.. or on a flat surface on wheels. Your plane operates in 3 axis and in any attitude and can and must be competently controlled whatever situation it's in.

  The INSTRUCTOR at least, as a bare minimum must be adequately trained  to get out of any situation he/she may reasonably be expected to encounter  as a minimum standard to do the job... This can only be demonstrated in a suitable aircraft, of course. That's a slight complication but should not be an insuperable obstacle, if we are fair dinkum about all of this. Nev

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On a biannual recently, my instructor had me doing stall recovery when the aircraft stalled in a  steep turn.   Grteat to do, great to learn.   Doping successfully removed the fear and increases confidence in your flying ability in adverse situations.   Very valuable.

 

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 Your plane is not certified for that if it's an RAAus type. The plane may flick and that puts extra loads on the airframe, and will certainly get your attention if you are not anticipating it, With power on and dynamically loaded it's a very different animal. It won't stall unless you pull the stick back, (too much). With height and the right plane you are OK.. You must be confident in the plane and your instructor. If you are both learning at the same time, it's not optimal.  Nev

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