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Frank 'n Lynn

Brymaroo Savannah

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G'day there. A new entry into the Savannah world with a kit on the build. Currently finding concern with the build manual and realism with it.

No doubt you fellas have experience with it. Is a reliable fuel/tank/engine/duct system available in schematic form that suits long range tanks and Rotax 912???

Cheers Frank

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The manual is terrible Is it a new kit or a older kit as the fuel and oil tubing is somewhat different

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Thanks Kyle for your response. It is a new 'S' kit via Peter Gillespie Aerokits, a great bloke and is trying very hard to assist sales in Australia.

We have nearly reached the right hand wing 'close up', but nervous that all is well with the fuel system before doing so. Cheers

IMG_1909.thumb.JPG.21ae8d235e3e64a3c63448a244d7489b.JPG

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Are you "hard riveting" or pull rivets ?

I saw something about the "pull-rivets" working & falling out near the tail end of the fuselage.

 

Zenith Aircraft Co, site, " Nevertheless, I feel impelled to warn some experimental designers that the shear values given by the blind rivet manufacturers in catalogues are to be looked at with some common sense as well. The manufacturer is not a liar, but he does present his product in the best possible way. For example, when they make tests they use very thin sheets so that the stem is long enough to fill the rivet (see figure 4), which is the reason why the individual shear strength is higher than an aircraft solid rivet (the steel stem participates). But on our aircraft, this is relatively seldom the case. As a rule of thumb, a reliable shear value should be 1/2 the catalog specification. But again, the designer should make tests. (Just as an example, when I do blind rivet tests, I knock the stem out before the test, just to be on the safe side!) " (article by "Riveted Joints By Chris Heintz, P. Eng)

 

spacesailor

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Hi spacesailor, where did you see something about the 'pull rivets' working and falling out near the tail of the fuselage?

 

I ask because there are a very large number of Savannahs now flying, entirely put together with 'pull rivets', and if pull rivets were working loose and falling out, I expect we'd have heard?

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Thanks Kyle for your response. It is a new 'S' kit via Peter Gillespie Aerokits, a great bloke and is trying very hard to assist sales in Australia.

We have nearly reached the right hand wing 'close up', but nervous that all is well with the fuel system before doing so. Cheers

Hey Frank n Lynn. Yep, the manual.........

I'm just finishing an S from a Dec 2014 kit. Looks as though you have some improvements there (which i don't have) by way of inspection hatches in the underside of the wing!

 

It looks from your pic as though you have looped the outer tank into the inner tank?

If so, this could give you problems in that any fuel you put in will spread across both/all tanks and/or run to the downhill tank any time you fly or park otherwise than level.

 

The more usual setup seems to be to run the outlets of the 2 tanks separately to the cockpit, then do some valving there.

My kit was supplied with tubing etc to do that.

 

There are then various ideas (with various pros and cons) as to how to valve the 4 tanks. I have gone for the arrangement Mark Kyle shows on his build thread: a manifold with 4 individual taps , one for each tank.

I believe Fallowdeer here has meanwhile hunted down a multi-port valve, and intends to put in a BothCentre/LHOuter/RHOuter selector setup.

 

Or I may have misunderstood entirely what you are doing...and why.............)

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I saw a video on "missing rivets" It could have been the Zenith planes, but didn't take much notice of the make. So I googled "missing rivets" & it came with what I posted.

Their answer was to replace some of the pull rivets with solid.

The rivets were only in the one area being affected, & Hummel aircraft forums have said beware of pull rivets working with vibration.

I have noted that some larger pull rivets (not on my aircraft) didn't quite pull tight enough, and could turn in their hole. ( when drilling out pull rivets they sometimes spin with your drill-bit).

spacesailor

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Thanks spacesailor for your comments, will keep an eye on the pull rivets we are using.

 

Ibob, your input is what the Doctor is searching for, thank you. The plumbing should be done NOW prior to closing and the separation of fuel supply accommodated.

A Savannah located at Dalby is plumbed as you suggest but the respective valves are a tad complicated. If Mark Kyle or Fallowdeer would provide more info I would be extremely appreciative. Cheers Frank

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Thanks spacesailor for your comments, will keep an eye on the pull rivets we are using.

 

Ibob, your input is what the Doctor is searching for, thank you. The plumbing should be done NOW prior to closing and the separation of fuel supply accommodated.

A Savannah located at Dalby is plumbed as you suggest but the respective valves are a tad complicated. If Mark Kyle or Fallowdeer would provide more info I would be extremely appreciative. Cheers Frank

Hi Frank,

Your inboard tank already has a fuel feed run out through the wing root.

I suggest you do the same with the outboard tank: run a separate feed out through the wing root. (That will mean blanking off the extra hole you have put in the inboard tank).

At some later date you can then decide how you want to valve the various tanks, but every setup I have seen starts off by running one line per tank in to the cockpit area.

We have had many conversations locally on what may be the best setup.

 

Mark posts here as Kyle Communication and has an excellent long thread, with many pictures, from his original build. There is a picture of his manifold/valve setup somewhere there.

I have sets of build pics here too.DSCF2059.thumb.JPG.21c7ac900ec878514cf573f9b08193b4.JPG

Fallowdeer (Peter) is early in his build, I don't know if he has yet sourced the selector valve he is hoping to use. I'll see if he will post you some details.

I should mention that there is also a simple valve system that the Aus agent (and I think ICP) sell. This is a T junction on each side of the cockpit, with one of the inputs valved, and the outputs of these are then T'd together. The inner tanks are hooked to the unvalved input, so both the inner tanks are always online. The outer tanks are brought in as required through the valves. In NZ we get to park on a lot of sloping strips, and we did not like the idea that, once an outer valve is open, the fuel is free to flow across that tank and both inner ones: even with a simple unvalved 2 tank setup, we see overflows of downhill full tanks with this.

 

You may find the search function on this site useful as you proceed with your build: it's a very big site and can be hard to find stuff otherwise.

Here is a pic of my manifold setup. It is a copy of Mark's, and sited on the wall behind the passenger, where the pilot can see it.

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I really like what I see, and the fog is starting to clear!

I will do as you suggest, and regardless, run the line out of the outboard tank in readiness for a future setup.

I will also swat up on Marks work.

Question, if I may .... fuel returns from engine to tanks.

Currently the design is to return to the TOP of the inboard tanks.

If we are drawing fuel from the outboard tanks it would be bad to return to the inboard units , which may be full!

It would appear at this early stage in my mind that another form of valving would be necessary to 'use and return' to the same tanks.

PS: Lynn is Pahiatua born and I have beaut in-law brothers at Fielding and Taupo (both fly freaks).

Again my thanks Frank

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Return flow is via a tiny aperture. Fallowdeer did quote some Litres/hr, it is minimal (2litres?).

As I recall, Mark has run his return back to the valve manifold, instead of to the tank.

I will run mine back to tank for starters.

 

I think this whole issue revolves around how you see yourself using your tanks.

In NZ the outer tanks would not be regularly used. But for longer trips the drill would be something like this:

Takeoff and climb to height on inner tanks.

Switch to outer tanks for cruise.

Switch to inner tanks for descent/landing.

The object being to burn off the outer tank fuel at height, and retain the inner tank fuel where it can be seen (sort of) on the level gauges.

 

Dip all in service tanks prior to all takeoffs.

Replace supplied low fuel indicator light for flashing LED version. Test this, and the tank switch regularly, at altitude, by temporarily turning off all tanks. This leaves approx 20mins fuel in the collector tank behind the seats, low fuel indicator should come on within 5minutes.

 

And never forget that a significant number of aircraft accidents and events are caused by incorrect fuel handling/settings.

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Frank I returned the fuel to the end of the manifold as my main breather for the 8litre reserve tank goes to the top of the inner tank. You should find all the info on my original XL build blog. It should be in the first 15 pages I think

 

You will see I have sight gauges for all 4 tanks fitted

 

get a 12V dc 10mm Jumbo flashing LED to replace the stupid bulb from Jaycar or Altronics and in my thread it fits into the same housing they supply I have pictures in there.

 

I am not a big fan of this corrogated piping they use at all now ... my S rebuild will have normal type fuel and oil tubing although all my fuel tube is EFI stuff

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Frank if you are down this way I am based out of Caboolture if you want to drop over...I live only 7min drive from Ycab. Currently just finalising closing up the rear of my S rebuild. Note the difference in the flaperon mixer between your later version and mineIMG_6921.thumb.jpg.c5ff590b897ddf050a64eafd9a3ed1cf.jpg

 

IMG_6954.thumb.jpg.5e329155b2ccbbd552a26e577f466976.jpg

IMG_6930.thumb.jpg.65336076fa2f7069633e8593ce44960b.jpg

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Excellent stuff Mark, thank you. I will attempt to source your build blog and study it.

The fuel system is now becoming very clear thanks to Ibob and yourself.

As mentioned earlier in the day I have now modified the original shared pipe, separating the inboard and outboard tanks and ran separate lines to rib #1.

Once there it will give me the opportunity to close up the R/H wing and march on.

A return tube to the top of the R/H tank is in situ & similar to your system.

Your generous offer for a visit is accepted and will give you a call for a suitable time.

Frank :thumb up:

IMG_1914.thumb.jpg.41a2917f94ba74df6f2161a4926a2c4a.jpg

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IMG_1917.thumb.jpg.28bda84a5199cfbc0a30a01ab9e6ed25.jpg

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Just an aside (again, as not aircraft grade)

Who would have thought a ladder less than ten year old would have popped rivets !.

20190507_121144.thumb.jpg.d826eaf0b9c2da71921e1c33424936f9.jpg

 

Not just one or two, but more than nine, ( nine counted ), in both the frame & steps.

spacesailor

20190507_121024.thumb.jpg.b1a83548dffa9c9c2f1849829eb21ccb.jpg

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Just an aside (again, as not aircraft grade)

Who would have thought a ladder less than ten year old would have popped rivets !.

[ATTACH type=full]42125[/ATTACH][ATTACH]42126[/ATTACH]

 

Not just one or two, but more than nine, ( nine counted ), in both the frame & steps.

spacesailor

Spacesailor, I'm trying to figure out what your preoccupation with rivets has to do with a thread started by another member to discuss aspects of his build with other members here???

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I asked if they were using solid or pull rivets, as I had viewed a utube video on an aircraft, were it's horizontal stab area had "missing rivets".

Hopefully it will save a problem if it gets coverage, to fix it with a solid rivet group would be a quick fix.

If someone finds that media coverage, it would be a help.

Also my air craft is pull riveted , & I noticed some were not tight, but could be rotated.

spacesailor

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I've not seen the video your refer to, yes it would be good to find it.

The only potential issue I've come across in the stabiliser area on the Savannah was with the rivets at the central elevator pivot.

JG started a thread on it here:

https://www.recreationalflying.com/threads/elevator-hinge-reinforcement.37682/post-355825

They are readily visible for inclusion in the preflight check, once you know what you are looking for.

I do know at least one builder who replaced them (during his build) with bolts.

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Our thanks to both you fellas, and the message is, 'do the job once, and do it right'.

But also keep an eye on anything that is likely to fall out or fail.

Will meet up with Mark Kyle this Friday and another good bloke Chris who is building a Savannah at Caboolture also.

For your interest and 'riveting' stuff, is ends of R/H wing with 'close up' hopefully in the next day or two with the nose skin happening also.

Cheers Frank

IMG_1948.thumb.jpg.7f8900516b74b9ad7815f36915aeff1c.jpg

IMG_1946.thumb.JPG.67325171678b583f84b6509831347702.JPG

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Lookin' good there Frank...and Mark I know is a great source of info, and always willing to share it: I'm still periodically bouncing stuff off him.

 

Interesting to see they've gone back to the half-and-half wingtip. Fallowdeer's VG has those, and we came up with a theory that it was a way to use up part of the wingtips in stock when they went from slats to VGs and changed the wing LE profile. But I guess that just got blown out of the water!

So now I'm guessing they are doing what they can to minimise what they can't make on their CNC gear.........???

 

Keep them pics coming...we all love to watch!

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".. But also checked a Zenith 701, which is identical construction, and found one rivet sheared, so it's a common issue. Everyone with Savannah and 701 aircraft need to keep a close eye on those rivets..."

That looks like the area in the video I saw.

SO hopefully the builder's will try a "solid rivet" in that area, as once in they're really tight.

spacesailor

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Return flow is via a tiny aperture. Fallowdeer did quote some Litres/hr, it is minimal (2litres?).

As I recall, Mark has run his return back to the valve manifold, instead of to the tank.

I will run mine back to tank for starters.

 

I think this whole issue revolves around how you see yourself using your tanks.

In NZ the outer tanks would not be regularly used. But for longer trips the drill would be something like this:

Takeoff and climb to height on inner tanks.

Switch to outer tanks for cruise.

Switch to inner tanks for descent/landing.

The object being to burn off the outer tank fuel at height, and retain the inner tank fuel where it can be seen (sort of) on the level gauges.

 

Dip all in service tanks prior to all takeoffs.

Replace supplied low fuel indicator light for flashing LED version. Test this, and the tank switch regularly, at altitude, by temporarily turning off all tanks. This leaves approx 20mins fuel in the collector tank behind the seats, low fuel indicator should come on within 5minutes.

 

And never forget that a significant number of aircraft accidents and events are caused by incorrect fuel handling/settings.

 

Folks - I would strongly recommend you get in the practice of dipping ALL tanks AFTER any significant flights ( say 1h30min) - if the tank levels aren't what you expected then start asking questions to better understand what is happening in your fuel system- its certainly given us cause to scratch our heads !!!

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Good to see they have moved away from the one piece fibreglass wingtip. Mine (13-05) are some of the last fibreglass forward, aluminium to the rear. Looking at the PITA that the full fibreglass tips cause to get anything like a decent fit, it is a good move. ICP are not shy about evolving their design, continually seeking improvement. It would make the parts inventory a problem to keep track of. I also took up the extended rudder which was designed at Aerokits Yetman factory and adopted by ICP for their tail dragger version of the Savannah S.

20190720_095146.jpg DSCF1008.JPG

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Steve, my all fibreglass wingtips went in without much trouble, though it is very much 'fitting' job, rather than straight assembly, and a pre-drilled part-aluminium tip has to be easier.  What we are noticing is great variation in the finish and quality of the fibreglass parts supplied.

As for the tall tail: I don't have one, but they seem to be very popular with the builders here in  NZ.

 

What remains to be done on your build? Or have you taken to the skies without telling us???

 

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Cowlings of the same period required a hell of a lot of preparation before painting, at most they were a scaffold to build fill onto. Gel coat is heavy no doubt but by the time they were bogged up enough to paint, I wonder how much weight advantage remained.

 

On the build wiring strobes to controller, fit 3A circuit breakers to Radio and C/S prop, fit rego decals, fit battery and add fuel. I have done my Weight and Balance course so will drain to unusable fuel, Weigh and get L4 inspection done and then it will be just paperwork.

 

I am badly non-current on my licence so will have to do some refreshment with an instructor and get my BFR done too.

 

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