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Marty_d

Alternative to steam gauges... opinions sought

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  I thought we were considering the "presentation" which is the interface YOU and the plane" have"  to  maximise your effective control of it.. The discussion on practicality of the mechanism, Mechanical or digital/ electric is another matter entirely .TSOD mechanical instruments will send you broke, and they are too heavy and bulky.. I'm not recommending them unless you have an "authentic"  antique which has to stay that way.

  You can have an electronic GYRO  with no moving parts.. Go for it. Only GYRO's (of some kind) will give you attitude information or rate turn info. To my mind, a rate turn  indicator is a must  as a back up and you should be able to fly on it.. A gyro stabilized heading indicator  (Compass) is very nice and so is an A/H  but they are not essential for VFR. We are stuck with BARO height indication  for  a while yet so must fly by and  understand it and it's limitations. to mix and have separation from other traffic.' using the same info. "Head up" display is great  also as you aren't distracted by looking down for airspeed etc  I'm also a bit of a fan of AoA indication also.. It's some of the unusual" Presentation" you should be wary of and a tendency to have a lot of dials  because they don't cost much more. Simple, needed, clear and reliable, is the go.

  IF you get an audio warning a lot you just eventually ignore it, and it becomes just another distraction.  Nev

Edited by facthunter

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No reason for audio warnings for things like oil pressure and temperature etc not to be voice nowadays. Something saying ALERT! ALERT! OIL PRESSURE! is kind of hard to get used to and it should not happen all that often. Probably arrange so it triggers on startup to test.

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 What if it's a false warning?  (as is often the case" the early B 747's had heaps of audio warnings  and they removed most of them as they were causing too many aborted take offs, which in their own right are a fairly critical operation. GPWS warnings are another issue.  IF you can't avoid a GPWS warning  due Loss of power or a necessary  maneuver over low terrain etc, you don't want the distraction. I've personally had a situation where 4  (all) oil pressure gauges failed due to an electrical supply failure but with the needles resting in different positions (as they can depending on the design).. Fire warnings are audible but cancellable, which is essential or you wouldn't be able to hear yourself talk. I've also has  a false stick shaker event at about 300 feet. Try that for a laugh.. Your gauges should be easy to read. and check if in the green easily at a glance. Nev

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We drive at what we think is "constant risk". This has been known since the 70's at least. Volvo's were considered boring but very safe cars and therefore given the lowest insurance costs. What happened was that the owners drove them faster and the result was that they had a big accident rate.

This is why compulsory vehicle inspections don't have any safety outcome. People who drive cars with problems are generally well aware of the problem and drive accordingly.

Unfortunately we are not very good at assessing risk. I am surprised at how airlines keep flying in weather which I think is risky but the passengers clearly have no idea. Paul Keating is alive and the Polish generalissimo died because the pilots could say "no" to Keating but not the generalissimo.

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Nev, I like audio warnings. About once in every ten years a u/c alarm saved me from a wheels-up in the glider.

On the Jabiru, I once left the master on and ruined a battery. Not now, if the mags are OFF and the master is ON then a warning sounds.

I need another one to tell me when the battery voltage reaches 14.2 volts. The difficulty is designing a circuit with zero current draw in the hangared state.

Edited by Bruce Tuncks
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 IN Flying, I always tested the seriousness of some "proposed action" by saying to myself "how would THIS look/play out at an inquiry", and have a plan "B" if possible. Most of us probably want to show off occasionally. That's definitely a trap to avoid. Life doesn't have to be dull though. There are plenty of REAL challenges you will meet, the longer you fly. Planes don't run on rails nor can you park and fix them in the air..  Accidents  don't just happen to "other"  people despite our inclination  to think/HOPE that they do.

  Not everyone should fly. There are some who should never do it The gifted /natural  pilot isn't immune from catastrophe or necessarily safer. Matching your skill level to the task applies to all equally. Good training and discipline works in aviation. She'll be right, isn't right for the situation .  The check you miss will one day bite you. One good thing about flying . You can limit the possibility of someone else killing YOU. On the road you can be unlucky as the other person may fall asleep, hit you on the wrong side etc.

  Bruce, people still land despite gear warnings with it not down. I'm not suggesting the U/C horn be removed  but it should be cancellable. You might have a reason to want to land with it up. You usually have gear position indicating lights. (3 greens,  on a tricycle) and clear to land is what you need.

   A stall warning horn is mandated generally, but set up to 9 knots above the stall. I would argue that's too high. (for most) and it won't stop people stalling on the turn to final.(.We'll It hasn't yet). You could put loads of warning horns, bells, hooters. Don't have them unless they're absolutely necessary. Let me tell you when you are flat out flying the thing in a critical situation you really don't need them.  Nev

Edited by facthunter
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I'd just like to add my 2 cents in regarding this topic and safety.

I have a steam guage cockpit and I have recently installed an Avmap glass efis which is about US$850.

To fit it, I removerd a a certified bat & ball with gyro which didnt work all that well which costs about US$1000 new.

I also run an ipad with navigation. The ipad has in the past gone blank because of heat, so I wouldnt want to be relying solely in the ipad to get me out of trouble.

I inadvertently flew into cloud recently. It was insidious. i didnt do it on purpose but it crept up on me. I first realised I was disoriented when I looked at the compass on the efis and noticed that it was reading 090 degrees instead of the 360 degrees I thought I was heading. My first thought was that the compas wasnt working, but then I realised what was happenning. The compass on the efis is much more reliable than the manual compass on the panel which swings through about 30 degrees and if not for the much more reliable Avmap I wouldnt have noticed I was off course until much later. I could still see the ground at that stage, but soon after I flew into total whiteout.  I also had the ipad so I could see where I was in real time on the chart. Because I knew the area and I had a reliable steady compass and artificial horizon with the altimeter right there on the efis, I was comfortably able to do a standard 270 degree turn to the left to head back south and new I was straight and level, on course and at a safe altitude even though I was in total whiteout for about 5 minutes.  There was a mountain at 1500 feet higher than I was just a couple of miles to the west, but I could trust the reliable instruments and was ok. After about 5 minutes, I flew out of cloud and was able to return to my home airstrip safely. I have doene about 3 hours of practice ifr with instructors so I knew what to do.

If I didnt have the efis, things could have been very different.

When I go flying now, I have the glass efis which has become my primary instrument, back up steam guages, and gps both on the efis and on the ipad. I have never had a blocked pitot, but if I had, I would have at least the gps speed, track and altitude to get me home.

I guess the lesson is, get the best and most reliable safety technology you can afford and have a back up. 

Like climate change, I think those who dis glass efises have their head in the sand. They are much more reliable, have much more information at a glance and may save your life. The AVMAP efis fits into a standard 3 1/4 inch hole and is relatively cheap and easy to install. 

 

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I guess I am the one person "out of step" in this mutually affirming conversation.

 

Get real guys  - for the most part we are flying relatively slow & low in VFR conditions.  By definition LOW TECH ! unless you jump on the want a better gimmick train. (which seems to be the democratic trend here) 

 

If all your navs fail, LOOK OUTSIDE (we are VFR pilots after all) and remember on the eastern seaboard, on a northerly heading, you will have sea/mountains on your right - strangely the converse is also true..

 

Worried about landing gear up leaving ship power on - CHECK LISTS (remember them) will get ding most/all of the things you are supposed to do, on time.

 

For the love of God how do you" inadvertently fly into cloud". No way! you made the decision.  You may have had little choice in the matter through poor judgement (most of us have been there) but still it was all down to you. Own it!

 

If your Ipad overheat/goes out on temp - locate it in front of an air vent, fit a fan or as I did, plumb in a dedicated Ipad cooling vent.

 

My Christmas message is safe flying  and KISS

 

 

 

 

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How can you land wheel-up? When you are distracted at the time of your normal checks, that's when.

Here's what happened the last time... beginning downwind at Waikerie, about 2002.  I was watching another glider which was approaching the circuit area. I gave my call on downwind, but the other glider continued to approach from the right at exactly my height.  I took some small avoiding action while watching the other glider intently. To this day, I doubt that he saw me.

Then on finals, my u/c warning buzzer went off, so I lowered the wheel, hoping that nobody noticed ( they did notice) and landed normally.

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Mike Borgelt

Just a note "Tried your link & had a :"Infected with HTML:Script-INF [ Susp]."

Also, do you know of a BD4 owned by a "Tori Mack".

How do the EFS hold up to bad vibration?.

spacesailor

 

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I'm also with Skippy. ..my primary navigation instrument is the right eyeball mounted just below my forehead.  After 60++ years of service with just one replacement lens I think that is pretty good.  (The left eyeball,  being only good for things less than 1m away without the monocle, is reserved for the instrument panel).

I'm not that keen on voice alerts and warnings...one of the joys of flying is that my wife doesn't like flying and stays on the ground. ..would seem silly to have an artifical replacement that would detract from the serenity.

I was taught that if I ever landed 'wheels up' in a sailplane that once the aircraft stopped, to immediately jump out and pace the distance of the landing roll....vis 'I did it intentionally to see how quickly it would pull up'.  We did always fly off lawn though. 

 

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My instructor complained that my electronic compass was too stable and not "swinging all over the place" when doing my cross country.

I smiled and thought to myself how good it was to have a rock steady compass.....

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 While a magnetic compass is " Lively' when you accelerate or turn it requires no external power ever and is pretty bombproof..   I think turning and acceleration errors would be part of the syllabus. You are supposed to be certificated  or licenced for more than one plane.   Nev

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32 minutes ago, facthunter said:

 While a magnetic compass is " Lively' when you accelerate or turn it requires no external power ever and is pretty bombproof..   I think turning and acceleration errors would be part of the syllabus. You are supposed to be certificated  or licenced for more than one plane.   Nev

I do wonder if current (at least RAA) students are taught “compass turns”.  With the acceleration errors &  overshoot and undershoot north and south or just using the rate 1 turn to give the 3°/sec. even with turbulence it works.  Talking to many pilots and reading some comments it would appear to me this basic information is either not being covered or completely forgotten?

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On 12/24/2018 at 11:02 AM, Bruce Tuncks said:

...................................................................................................................................................................................

This is why compulsory vehicle inspections don't have any safety outcome. People who drive cars with problems are generally well aware of the problem and drive accordingly..............................................................................

Cant help myself  - Just got to take you up on this Bruce.

 

First lets dispense with any allusions that most drivers have any awareness of the mechanical needs or condition of their vehicle - they do not! Most are almost or completely reliant on their service person to not only do whatever is prescribed in the service/interval book but also check tyre pressure, windshield wash reservoir etc etc. You may wish to hypothesis on how this has come about  and there are certainly quite a few contributing theories one of which is the financial benefit to the car companies.agencies (the rise & rise of warranty  periods) in fostering/maintaining ignorance in the driving public.

 

There is very little interest in driving, driving excellence or mechanical effectiveness. The current young will welcome autonomous/self drive vehicles without a qualm. Cars are promoted on their entertainment, communication & safety package not on handling/driving characteristics.

 

On compulsory vehicle inspections; I am an avid supporter. Yes they have limited benefit  but the reason for this are:

For privately operated vehicles, they are at best a cursory inspection where only the obvious is checked  - in my opinion  a worthless sham. Commercial vehicles on the other hand are subject to far more rigorous (but still insufficient) inspection.

Cars are, in general, in better mechanical condition due to:

The rise & rise of service packages - all aspects of your vehicle are maintained by the dealership.

The increased popularity of leased vehicles - the lease usually requires the above scenario.

The national car fleet is younger these days - I think that when annual inspection was brought  we had many more old/high km vehicles on our roads than now. With increased urbanisation it is likely that they travel fewer k's/ year as well - this probably adds up to vehicles that are not as substandard as in the past.

Reduced risk:

Safer roads - the increase in "Armco Railing" & similar arrester systems.

The ridiculous focus on speed as the only factor in accidents (& a revenue raiser ) slower drivers can get away with poorer handling cars.

Etc etc

 

Without annual inspection there would be many more defective vehicles on our roads.  I would advocate for much more stringent inspection standards than are currently practices.

 

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2 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

Cant help myself  - Just got to take you up on this Bruce.

 

First lets dispense with any allusions that most drivers have any awareness of the mechanical needs or condition of their vehicle - they do not! Most are almost or completely reliant on their service person to not only do whatever is prescribed in the service/interval book but also check tyre pressure, windshield wash reservoir etc etc. You may wish to hypothesis on how this has come about  and there are certainly quite a few contributing theories one of which is the financial benefit to the car companies.agencies (the rise & rise of warranty  periods) in fostering/maintaining ignorance in the driving public.

 

There is very little interest in driving, driving excellence or mechanical effectiveness. The current young will welcome autonomous/self drive vehicles without a qualm. Cars are promoted on their entertainment, communication & safety package not on handling/driving characteristics.

 

On compulsory vehicle inspections; I am an avid supporter. Yes they have limited benefit  but the reason for this are:

For privately operated vehicles, they are at best a cursory inspection where only the obvious is checked  - in my opinion  a worthless sham. Commercial vehicles on the other hand are subject to far more rigorous (but still insufficient) inspection.

Cars are, in general, in better mechanical condition due to:

The rise & rise of service packages - all aspects of your vehicle are maintained by the dealership.

The increased popularity of leased vehicles - the lease usually requires the above scenario.

The national car fleet is younger these days - I think that when annual inspection was brought  we had many more old/high km vehicles on our roads than now. With increased urbanisation it is likely that they travel fewer k's/ year as well - this probably adds up to vehicles that are not as substandard as in the past.

Reduced risk:

Safer roads - the increase in "Armco Railing" & similar arrester systems.

The ridiculous focus on speed as the only factor in accidents (& a revenue raiser ) slower drivers can get away with poorer handling cars.

Etc etc

 

Without annual inspection there would be many more defective vehicles on our roads.  I would advocate for much more stringent inspection standards than are currently practices.

 

I was with you all the way....right up until that last sentence.

I would just like to see operator maintenance as part of the licence. Don't understand how the vehicle you are operating works and can't perform basic OM ....no licence for you.

The problem is that none of our authorities can be trusted to wield any more power than they have have now, even that is a stretch.

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 Annual inspections have proven to be not cost effective and places where they have them are not detectably safer than when they  don't. Modern cars brake well and handle well , have better lights and are more occupant safe by design but people drive badly generally, as they don't apply the required effort to assess road conditions and the other traffic, and many are just poor drivers skill wise.. Vehicles get put off the road  in the course of police noticing tell tale" signs and are defected on the spot. when they are gone over.

     You could pass an inspection with borrowed tyres, put yours back on, and have a badly cracked windscreen next week.  or fail to ensure the wheel nuts are tightened to the correct tension. Some people don't clean their windows or put windscreen washer in the container or even check the tyres are inflated before they jump in. Driving when tired , fatigued and under the effect of even prescribed drugs or driving on the phone or arguing with someone when driving, getting annoyed at some other driver, going too slow etc. NOT paying enough attention weaving in and out of lanes, not leaving enough room from the vehicle in front. Running out of fuel on freeways and bridges and creating a traffic hazard. Some will drive a car when it's got suspension noises, driveline vibrations shuddering brakes and when warning lights are remaining on. The crazy NUT that holds the steering wheel is the weak link in the safety equation. Oh of course pinching you for going one Km over the limit  (as they do in SA) means you watch the speedo instead of the other traffic and the road..  and there's an overwhelming array of advisory signs you are supposed to notice as well as the AVERTISING billboards competing for your attention on every overbridge and place on the edge of the freeway they can find. Nev

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We have strayed alarmingly - I take full responsibility.

 

I agree with Facthunter & M61A1. From my perspective annual inspections are great idea - Its their implementation that is absolutely woeful (for private vehicles) rendering them ineffective and may as you suggest be redundant as well.

 

I will relate a true story (without gilding) that can only add to your despair. I have been an amateur / bush mechanic for some 55 years This hobby has often lead to friends & relatives seeking help and or opinion on some automotive/ mechanical matter.

About 6 month ago a female friend asked that I assist in the purchase of a Toyota people mover (she had already decided the make, model and even year that suited her - all good stuff) for transporting her multitude of grand children. I agreed (with a little reluctance as have previous experience of this sort of scenario). did a google search on the vehicle in question, contacted the local Toyota workshop (manager is a friend) to get some background on common faults etc and in due course was asked to accompany her to inspect a likely offering.

Inspection - neutral territory in a semi public car park. Took overalls, cardboard to protect self when lying on ground, small hydraulic jack, torch, screw driver and note book. Conducted as thorough inspection as I could given the limitations and did a local test drive to test steering, brakes, auto gear change, road holding, suspicious noises etc. Long story short I advised my friend that the vehicle was a good mechanical prospect but when negotiating, to address a short list of defects that I had found, including very importantly leaking rear shocks and a odometer reading and maintenance history that suggested that new shocks all round were overdue and a safety must do for her & her grand children.

Vehicle purchased and then taken to local garage( & Roadworthy inspection provider) for service - mechanic advised her not to purchase shocks ???? go figure. 6 month's later, still driving round on OM shocks. Any day soon, she may need to brake sharply or swerve to avoid an incident - car will roll  -  occupants are likely to be injured or worse.

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Skippy, you have some valid points, but when you work through the numbers... $1000 min per inspection and rectification times 1 million vehicles = a thousand million to spend on safety stuff with roads etc.

What, I ask, is the least worst? I reckon its using the money on things other than inspections.

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Where do you come up with $1000 per inspection? Is it because you assume there will be $1000 worth of stuff that should have been done to maintain a roadworthy vehicle?

We don't have annual inspections in QLD, but generally speaking the vehicle standard is good. Although there are occasionally, visible exceptions.

Much like aviation, most collisions are due human factors rather than poor maintenance.

Mostly they don't drive slowly to accommodate their worn out vehicle, but because they are incapable of anything else. Although most are slow, careful is not a word I would use to describe them.

Ignorant, unaware and insipid are.

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Me thinks Paul Keating had it about right - Manana or is it  - she'll be right mate. We are a small people in a huge land mass, if we are to survive/thrive, we cant afford this level of systemic corruption . We need to behave like Scandinavians not the peoples of the Americas.

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NSW inspections every year,

Big demand for LOAN wheels with good tread, Borrow a part to get that warrant of fitness pass.,

Then run around with the original worn-out bits,

I think near fifty % of cars outside of main city's have No third party insurance. (too expensive for a $500 heap of sheet.)

Ever see an traffic cop check the road worthy condition when blowing the breathalyzer.

The 4.5 ton weight of trailer combination, Does that have a wheel bearing check ?.

spacesailor

 

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