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7 hours ago, M61A1 said:

Safety and quality management people are continually making up new processes and rules, that ensures employment.

Could not agree more! CASA is a great example.

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45 minutes ago, Jim McDowall said:

Could not agree more! CASA is a great example.

A quaint view given we are talking about groups which manage their own safety, like RAA. There are now hundreds of thousands of Companies and Organisations in Australia which are using SMS as the framework for their risk assessment policy. Anyone is free to suggest they are all out of step.

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27 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

Anyone is free to suggest they are all out of step.

Most are small businesses who are simply cutting and pasting to fulfill a legislative or contractual obligation - probably with their fingers crossed. It is only large companies (and government - checkout how much your local council spends on WHS) that can genuinely implement SMS. And BTW the ubiquitous yellow (orange sometimes) and blue are only worn as they are cheap and they get you on to work sites without a fuss. I doubt that, because they are so commonplace now (ie functional blindness) they improve a workers visibility.

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 The "nature " of the flying training "scene" is not really such that a wide divergence of safety methods need to apply really good practical principles would apply universally. people vary the method of getting the message across but he aims are the same. Safety is a mindset, an attitude that  moulds the way you do things.

     Writing words like insist on checklists being done doesn't mean the 'ACE of the base" pilot does them, except when someone's watching. Nev

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7 minutes ago, facthunter said:

 The "nature " of the flying training "scene" is not really such that a wide divergence of safety methods need to apply really good practical principles would apply universally. people vary the method of getting the message across but he aims are the same. Safety is a mindset, an attitude that  moulds the way you do things.

     Writing words like insist on checklists being done doesn't mean the 'ACE of the base" pilot does them, except when someone's watching. Nev

You've pretty much encapsulated it; if you give a student a checklist, that's included in the SMS.

While nothing happens, nothing happens, but in an accident caused by a checklist fail, you've discharged your duty of care under the SMS, and if the pilot has been ignoring them except when you're around he's the one who pays the penalty.

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I love the magical thinking that pieces of paper ensure safety. What next, pieces of paper to cure cancer, eliminate poverty and ensure world peace?

If you submitted an SMS and didn't get acknowledgement of its acceptability to the authorities demanding it, I'd, as a matter of urgency, enquire as to why and demand a response in writing. Otherwise if you encounter a problem down the track you may find they deny all knowledge of it and you are the bunny. Got to protect the relationship with the insurance company.

As for responsibility, if an authority demands you have one and are required to submit for approval it and you get it, the responsibility falls back on the authority.

Funny how EASA has stated that an SMS is not required for operation of small aircraft. They apply to commercial/airline operations.

All that an SMS does is, by specifying in detail how you operate, is make your operation inflexible and gives the authorities ammunition to use against you. CASA isn't interested in aviation safety - they are interested in making so many rules that inevitably one or more are broken in your everyday operation so that if things go wrong they can point to a broken rule, fine or jail you and publicly look like they are doing their jobs.

As facthunter points out, safety is a mindset a safety culture not a rules culture.

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I don't run a flying school buy doesn't the RAA issue some sort of compliance note to satisfy your insurance that your school meets the current safety standards?

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1 hour ago, Mike Borgelt said:

I love the magical thinking that pieces of paper ensure safety. What next, pieces of paper to cure cancer, eliminate poverty and ensure world peace?

I think you are missing the point here.  We construct our 'own' RAAus flying school SMS based on the template that RAAus have already agreed with CASA. This is submitted to RAAus Ops to ensure it meets compliance with the RAAus SMS.

 

Now, an SMS cannot include every single 'safety' related item that's involved in flying, much less as related to 'learning-to-fly'. Checklists take care of some of the essential items. Other really important decisions are included in the process of the schools teaching of principles. Many of these will be included according to the experience and flying wisdom of the CFI, and will of course be extra to the fundamental stuff as laid down in the RAAus syllabus and the Part 61 M-O-S.

 

Here I'd give as an example - the construction of the pre-takeoff checklist. Mine always have the engine run-ups LAST - and if you have to ask why, then you haven't frightened yourself with carby ice accumulation!  I also add in, a few obvious items AFTER this - including  'heels on floor/toes off brakes, check finals traffic, check windsock & your ailerons into wind' as we enter the runway.  Now none of this needs to be in an SMS, or it would stretch on forever.  But, it significantly contributes to the safety of a flight, and to the sum of knowledge that the student accumulates at your school. RAAus Ops should pickup on this during audits and should be using the useful to educate the less experienced CFIs as they are reviewed.

 

Anyway, our RAAus schools cannot exist without compliance with both RAAus requirements, and with the CASA Regulations. The SMS is just another item that we need to live with in the modern world. We just deal with it, and get on with instructing.

 

happy days,

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It would be great if it was as simple as Turbo says, but in reality all auditors have different interpretations and expectations.. while the principle of the SMS may be good, here in Australia we have a very poor record of implementing any good ideas. I’ve worked alongside quality and safety managers for close to 30 years now and have developed a serious disdain for all of them. Parasites. 

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If OH&S people are parasites, how do you explain this?

208030030_DeathStats.thumb.png.2a9ba4d2d1ed37dbfcfdd4693d6d61b2.png

 

Ref: https://www.safeworkaustralia.gov.au/statistics-and-research/statistics/fatalities/fatality-statistics

 

On the other hand, the safety guru, James Reason, knew that safety did decrease the efficiency of businesses. What tends to happen is the businesses tend to become more and more efficient, have a big accident, get more safe, then repeat the process. Mining is intrinsically dangerous, but they seem to have had such a paracitic infestation that this is mining safety now: 

 

ScreenClip.thumb.png.40689b5e74993e2a8581762c5edf32ff.png

 

Ref: as above 

 

 

Edited by APenNameAndThatA

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I am reading the graph correctly? It seems that Mining and Public administration and safety experience roughly the same proportion of worker fatalities. Clearly the safety business aint safe!

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Mining includes all the little Mum & Dad mines (think opals, gemstones) and in some States Quarries too.  The big coal mines have a fatality rate you can count on one hand.

 

That graph shows the proportion of fatalities (not the proportion in reference to the size of the industry).  Eg if there were 100 deaths in 2016 then 26 were Transport etc and 3 were Public Admin.  In reference to the industry (a % of all people so employed) would show that agriculture tops the list as the most dangerous.

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Checklists do serve a purpose - I worked in construction - a couple of our lads self assessed (ticked & ignored) the Hot Works Permit.  Angle grinding on a hot windy day without clearing the dry grass from where they were working or having water on hand.  Up she went!  Grass fire raging towards the car park and private land while they raced around trying to find something to fight it with.  Wall of flame between them and car ... total write-off.  If they had heeded the requirements it may not have happened.  As it was he had to bear the loss of his vehicle and the wrath of his boss, and the local farmer lost a few hectares and a day mopping up. 

No checklist and he could have pleaded that No-One Told Me ... and the company might have been compensating a whole car park full of vehicles and an irate grazier.

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1 hour ago, FlyingVizsla said:

Angle grinding on a hot windy day without clearing the dry grass

Isn't it amazing the number of grass fires started by "angle grinders" or people who are unaware of their surroundings!

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2 hours ago, FlyingVizsla said:

Checklists do serve a purpose - I worked in construction - a couple of our lads self assessed (ticked & ignored) the Hot Works Permit.  Angle grinding on a hot windy day without clearing the dry grass from where they were working or having water on hand.  Up she went!  Grass fire raging towards the car park and private land while they raced around trying to find something to fight it with.  Wall of flame between them and car ... total write-off.  If they had heeded the requirements it may not have happened.  As it was he had to bear the loss of his vehicle and the wrath of his boss, and the local farmer lost a few hectares and a day mopping up. 

No checklist and he could have pleaded that No-One Told Me ... and the company might have been compensating a whole car park full of vehicles and an irate grazier.

Essentially what you're saying is that it's tin plating for the manager's butt. Any decent tradie knows not to do that, but the boss can prove it wasn't his fault if he gave them a checklist?

Checklist or not the tradie was responsible.

As pilots, the only person you can rely on to keep you safe is YOU. Use a checklist is that's what you want, we have so many checklists now we need checklists for our checklists.That was also the original premise of flying ultralights, you, you alone took responsibility for safety of you and your machine, get a few lawyers involved and the handwringing do gooders and you get what we've got now.

They've done it to most forms of sport, with the exception of a few diehards, the only people affording it are those at professional level. Articles in the papers seem to acknowledge the high cost and unnecessary rules, but they still can't seem to understand why very few people are playing. It starts at junior league and goes right through to motorsports.

 

1 hour ago, Jim McDowall said:

Isn't it amazing the number of grass fires started by "angle grinders" or people who are unaware of their surroundings!

Must be an awful lot of angle grinding tradies doing roadside work......or maybe it's something else...hey smokers??:amazon:

 

5 hours ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

If OH&S people are parasites, how do you explain this?

208030030_DeathStats.thumb.png.2a9ba4d2d1ed37dbfcfdd4693d6d61b2.png

 

Ref: https://www.safeworkaustralia.gov.au/statistics-and-research/statistics/fatalities/fatality-statistics

 

On the other hand, the safety guru, James Reason, knew that safety did decrease the efficiency of businesses. What tends to happen is the businesses tend to become more and more efficient, have a big accident, get more safe, then repeat the process. Mining is intrinsically dangerous, but they seem to have had such a paracitic infestation that this is mining safety now: 

 

ScreenClip.thumb.png.40689b5e74993e2a8581762c5edf32ff.png

 

Ref: as above 

 

 

Because most of our safety people (where I work) once worked in mines. They waltz in the door then start trying to enforce draconian unusable mining safety concepts in aviation maintenance, an industry that already has a very good safety record. They do this in the name of compliance with OH&S regs of course, yet when you read said regs, they have gone absolutely overkill. Yes they have complied, but usually they could have complied in many different ways most of them way more worker friendly than the rubbish they've just come up with.  I have seen millions of dollars spent in compliance for no appreciable outcome except that box is ticked.  Then they wonder why there is a collective groan everytime they unveil some new bit of policy. For the most part they seem to be "not so bright" ex-tradies who did a course to get them further up the managerial ladder, I suspect my dog has more capacity for rational thought than most of them. (he is smart for a dog though)

 

It's meant to be as simple as Turbo says, but in reality we seem to have a bunch of mugs who think the most complicated, expensive solution is the only way.

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You can’t legislate common sense and a safety culture - if both (or either) are missing pieces of paper mean zero.

It is a developed industry and will be defended to the death by individuals making money by writing heaps of paper to justify their existence but in the end someone has to do the actual work or in our case actually fly the aeroplane or the paper shufflers cease to exist.

I can forecast some of the replies but will not entertain their attempted justification, life goes on with or without the tree destroyers (some actuall claim to be greenies as well).

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1 hour ago, pmccarthy said:

Two serious angle grinder accidents with members at our aero club this year.

Better get onto RAAus and have some power tool training included in the syllabus....

On a more serious note...If they can seriously (just what is a "serious" angle grinder injury?) and unintentionally injure themselves using an angle grinder, I wouldn't want them around me, and if they won't go then I will. (taking responsibility for my own safety)

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I had an  angle grinder accident, put a big scratch into my thick leather apron, glad  I put it on tho.  along with glasses & earmuffs.

spacesailor

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