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Yenn

Accident and defect

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I see that the accident and defect records published by RAAus are once again becoming useless. There are 9 published in the current list which have no details except for type of plane time and place. Not much to be learned from that info. I have queried RAAus once before about this and they replied that they were short of staff to complete the job.

Studying the problems others have had, is in my opinion one of the best ways to fly safer, Studying the info given by RAAus is just a waste of time.

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I asked the RAA people at aus fly about this, they are written up by one of the office staff, not sure if they are a pilot but it is an area that needs improving.The two line "reports" are almost a joke at times.

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Not only are they a joke, they make it up as they go along. I put in a report few years ago and they commented that I was not compliant with the regs , Didn't even understand what I was saying. took a long time to get it amended.

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Not just them,

I asked on This forum about a pilot that crashed his HummelBird,

Dead silence,

almost deafening

I still don't know if Ron is OK,

spacesailor

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This might be an unpopular opinion, but I wonder if you want an organisation that is inexpensive and unbureaucratic, then this is the kind of thing that you might expect to get? I do have a question, which others might be able to answer. If an accident is investigated, could the results of the investigation not just be published? Is there a problem with confidentiality or defamation? Thanks!

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This might be an unpopular opinion, but I wonder if you want an organisation that is inexpensive and unbureaucratic, then this is the kind of thing that you might expect to get? I do have a question, which others might be able to answer. If an accident is investigated, could the results of the investigation not just be published? Is there a problem with confidentiality or defamation? Thanks!

Yes there is; there are multiple threads on this going into the fine detail.

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...I have queried RAAus once before about this and they replied that they were short of staff to complete the job....

It's our organisation. What's wrong with RAA advertising for some voluntary assistance from someone with experience, skills and enthusiasm...there are mobs of them on this forum.

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Not just them,

I asked on This forum about a pilot that crashed his HummelBird,

Dead silence,

almost deafening

I still don't know if Ron is OK,

spacesailor

 

That's similar to the recent accident out near Wentworth in which 2 young guys (20 and 22) lost the lives. There appears to be no mention of it or condolences from the RAAus "Family".

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It's our organisation. What's wrong with RAA advertising for some voluntary assistance from someone with experience, skills and enthusiasm...there are mobs of them on this forum.

Maybe 4 or 5 years ago I volunteered to spend a week in Canberra at my expense to assist in any way they needed. I am still waiting for a reply.

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THEY don't use the experience and skills out in the Ranks. They have the system as they want it. "Under Control". Nev

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Maybe 4 or 5 years ago I volunteered to spend a week in Canberra at my expense to assist in any way they needed. I am still waiting for a reply.

That's exactly the sort of stuff we need to raise in a direct call to the head honcho- especially before an election.

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Its a self reporting system, they will publish the account presented.

Might be delayed but better than it was

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That's exactly the sort of stuff we need to raise in a direct call to the head honcho- especially before an election.

Volunteer contributions work for an Incorporated Association like we had; in fact are the backbone of even the biggest groups, but you voted for a Limited Company which couldn't be further from that model, and which relies on employees, and plenty of them.

 

It is possible to unscramble the egg, but first a lot of shareholders have to make a commitment, and there's no sign of that happening right now, so there's no point talking about volunteers.

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THEY don't use the experience and skills out in the Ranks. They have the system as they want it. "Under Control". Nev

 

That's pretty close to the mark. You'll find some of the Accident and Defect summaries are vague for a reason, investigations (including fatals) aren't followed through correctly, and critical information isn't being passed on to where it should be.

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That's exactly the sort of stuff we need to raise in a direct call to the head honcho- especially before an election.

 

It's been raised all the way up to the RAAus CEO. The offer was put forward after a number of fatals, etc. in North Queensland that had links identified. It fell on deaf ears, and it's only a matter of time before some poor innocent sod will be fleeced of his cash, and branded with a cockpit dash. One fool has already got played on kit-build helicopter.

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It's been raised all the way up to the RAAus CEO. The offer was put forward after a number of fatals, etc. in North Queensland that had links identified. It fell on deaf ears, and it's only a matter of time before some poor innocent sod will be fleeced of his cash, and branded with a cockpit dash. One fool has already got played on kit-build helicopter.

I think if you do some research, you'll find that State Police investigate recreational aircraft fatalities, and prepare a brief for the Coroner, and they are not going to release any information in that brief to the general public. The Coroner will produce a finding and report, and until that report is released, the evidence is sealed. A recent Coroner's report was quite helpful.

Recreational Aviation Australia is often called to the scene of a fatal crash by Police to provide expert assistance, and any written or verbal advice they provide is sealed with the brief.

So there's no expectation that RAA could breach its obligations to Police and start giving out accident causes.

Where ATSB decides to investigate a fatal accident, there are progress and final reports on the ATSB website.

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Yeah, I've been doing some research, and looking beyond the standard fare put out by RAAus, CASA and the ATSB. I think if you do some research, and keep your ears and eyes open, you'll find in reality the Recreational Aviation Australia has more of a hand in the investigation of a fatal crash, than just providing assistance to the police. The level of expertise and integrity of the information and advice they provide would also be questionable. That could also be applied to both CASA and the ATSB. Evidence does not have to be released to the general public, but should be correctly examined and leads followed up on. It's understandable that the above organisations would not be prepared to investigate things too deeply, with the risk of implicating themselves. The recent Coroners Report was quite good considering the constraints placed on the reports, but still leaves a number of questions unanswered. Also, there may be a number of reasons why it was a bit more thorough than usual. Cheers

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With RAAus crowing about how good they are at getting the accident rate down I can see that they would not want to bring a fatal accident to everyones attention. I believe that we can all learn better form someone elce's accident rather than have our own, so publishing accident reports is a safety promoter.

The report does not have to include all the details, if they are subject to the coroners scrutiny, but a report of type of aircraft, pilots name and location would help. We all have heard of accidents where the pilot was considered to be an accident waiting to happen

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RAA has, in recent times, provided a pretty quick response to some fatal accidents by providing a generalised warning which we can assume was inspired by their accident investigation. We should encourage them to continue that practice.

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On ‎11‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 9:35 AM, Yenn said:

With RAAus crowing about how good they are at getting the accident rate down I can see that they would not want to bring a fatal accident to everyones attention.

That thought did occur to me as well.  The accident 'rate' or 'number of' could be lower for many, many reasons.  It's quite simplistic, and less than honest, to identify 'increased safety compliance' with lower accidents. RAAus HO need to take a more realistic approach to this matter.

 

As far as I know, there are less total hours being flown, there are less aircraft actually 'serviceable' and in flying condition, and many incidents & accidents are not reported, (probably more so in recent times). As well, there is an ever higher % of our pilots who are not flying at all, due economics, limited access to a hire aircraft, or loss of interest. These, together with other factors, are very likely the reasons behind less 'accidents' being recorded.

 

Our HO needs to be reminded of the great aviation truism :  ' Learn from other pilots mistakes because you won't have time to make them all yourself'

 

happy days,

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That's true enough poteroo.   We have to learn from and not emulate incidents and accidents..  Some regard a miss is as good as a mile . A near disaster has all or most of the aspects of an actual hit or prang which is a breakdown of the rules or conditions applying to SAFE conduct of flights with the added advantage  being, the participants are still around to tell of it. . IF you are still alive and had a lot of close calls you are not alive because you are a safe pilot. You are alive because you are a lucky pilot (so far). Nev

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On 11/7/2018 at 11:51 AM, APenNameAndThatA said:

This might be an unpopular opinion, but I wonder if you want an organisation that is inexpensive and unbureaucratic, then this is the kind of thing that you might expect to get? I do have a question, which others might be able to answer. If an accident is investigated, could the results of the investigation not just be published? Is there a problem with confidentiality or defamation? Thanks!

If ATSB are involved there is a series of progress reports and a final report so you get a good idea of what happened; I miss the old days when Macarthur Job would go one step further and look into the pilot's background, and there would often be a section pointing out that the pilot had often bragged to friends about flying in cloud, or aerobatics down to zero etc. and this removed any doubt about what happened. However time and legal conventions move on.

 

Where ATSB are not involved, the normal procedure for any fatal accident applies; Police prepare a brief for the State Coroner of the day, and do not release any information to the public. People can attend the Coroner's hearing if they can work out when it is on, and they can read his/her opinion if they can find it in public records. Given that a number of years can pass before the Coroner will have made a decision, the timeline is almost impossible to follow, and the Coroner is usually looking for a cause of death rather than a cause of accident. Some reports aren't of much help to us; others can be very enlightening. Police frequently call in RAA for technical assistance, and RAA don't breach the police legal process.

 

One person in RAA tried a process where he issued a very broad safety report, not specific to a crash or location, and I thought that was very helpful. He was able to get a very strong message across for other pilots to do something without breaching the legal process, but I haven't seen one recently

 

I've often tried to think of ways we could tap into the Coroners process more reliably, and I have a meeting coming up where fatalities are not being optimally recorded in a particular road transport sector, where there might be an opportunity to raise the subject again.

 

 

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1 hour ago, turboplanner said:

If ATSB are involved there is a series of progress reports and a final report so you get a good idea of what happened; I miss the old days when Macarthur Job would go one step further and look into the pilot's background, and there would often be a section pointing out that the pilot had often bragged to friends about flying in cloud, or aerobatics down to zero etc. and this removed any doubt about what happened. However time and legal conventions move on.

 

Where ATSB are not involved, the normal procedure for any fatal accident applies; Police prepare a brief for the State Coroner of the day, and do not release any information to the public. People can attend the Coroner's hearing if they can work out when it is on, and they can read his/her opinion if they can find it in public records. Given that a number of years can pass before the Coroner will have made a decision, the timeline is almost impossible to follow, and the Coroner is usually looking for a cause of death rather than a cause of accident. Some reports aren't of much help to us; others can be very enlightening. Police frequently call in RAA for technical assistance, and RAA don't breach the police legal process.

 

One person in RAA tried a process where he issued a very broad safety report, not specific to a crash or location, and I thought that was very helpful. He was able to get a very strong message across for other pilots to do something without breaching the legal process, but I haven't seen one recently

 

I've often tried to think of ways we could tap into the Coroners process more reliably, and I have a meeting coming up where fatalities are not being optimally recorded in a particular road transport sector, where there might be an opportunity to raise the subject again.

 

 

So when does the ATSB get involved and when don't they? 

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6 hours ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

So when does the ATSB get involved and when don't they? 

It used to be easy; they got involved in all GA fatal crashes, and they didn't get involved in RA crashes.

Then probably under pressure to cut back on taxpayer funds, they stopped investigating the GA crashes with an obvious cause, such as some aerobatic crashes, where investigation wouldn't add any knowledge.

Then they they started to strategically choose some RA accidents to investigate.

Today, my take is that they strategically select which crashes to investigate based on potential learning, so the line is slightly blurred.

In my opinion ATSB is a very professional operation.

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