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 No he didn't stuff up about the bowels  thing. It's common to pee or $#1t yourself IF you are $#1T scared.. (So I've been informed). 

  Anyhow Nobody's prefect. Not referring to the Forum member of that name..  Nev

Edited by facthunter

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A lot of people are saying "can't learn from internet"

But what of those great "Video's" from Kings training videos?

spacesailor

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6 hours ago, facthunter said:

 Most people don't get exposed to landings with a tailwind until they HAVE to do one and they usually stuff it up by thinking they are going too fast. It's part of the low flying training you are not allowed to do unless you are mustering. Your base leg gives you a chance to assess the wind on final by the drift you encounter  when on base. Nev

The only thing I know about low-flying training is that once people do it they are more cautious about low flying. 

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2 hours ago, old man emu said:

I didn't call you "silly". I said you were "being silly". There's a vast difference between the two concepts.

 

 

I respectfully disagree. But I don’t mind if you call me silly. The way I see it, if I want people to respond to me, there is no point insisting that they respond in a certain way. 

Edited by APenNameAndThatA

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Obviously you 15 hour's experience 25 years ago and your current 5 hour's has placed you at a level of knowledge and experience far above the rest of us, mere mortals.

 

I can only suggest that to move in your elevated peer group, you take the advice contained in the penultimate line of this well-known ditty

 

https://www.ivebeeneverywhere.com.au/the-song/australian-version/

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I've seen a different Australian version....some might get offended if posted here....

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Flare with care for no repair,

Flare with dare when winds impair,

Flare with flair when crowds do stare.

 

 

English 101 for Pilots

 

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4 hours ago, old man emu said:

Obviously you 15 hour's experience 25 years ago and your current 5 hour's has placed you at a level of knowledge and experience far above the rest of us, mere mortals.

 

I can only suggest that to move in your elevated peer group, you take the advice contained in the penultimate line of this well-known ditty

 

https://www.ivebeeneverywhere.com.au/the-song/australian-version/

Poor diddums. I was insufficiently defferential to you. I wish you were more happy after the considerable effort you went to with your earlier posts.

 

I have learned a lot from this thread, so a genuine thank you to everyone who took the time to post. 

Edited by APenNameAndThatA

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This whole thread has been fascinating. It has really made me think about my landings, of which there are lots because I mostly fly circuits solely to improve my landings. Sometimes I am completely happy with them, most times they are Ok but could have been better. The biggest problem I had way back when learning to fly was different instructors with different ideas about how things should be done. Would have been better to stick with one instructor but mostly that doesn’t seem possible. Some were of the select a landmark variety, some of the relative geometry type. I actually use the relative geometry method, seems to work at any airfield then. Actually after reading all of this I tried to analyse my landing style and can’t, I just do it, no two landings are ever identical because of wind, sun in your eyes, or whatever. If you ever read the Bush Fliers Down Under stuff you will see that tailwind landings are sometimes necessary on one way strips. I think it is useful to have done a few just for experience sake. My CH701 needs about 100 metres to land (with this pilot!) and here at Warwick I have 1700metres of runway, so on light traffic days (that is most weekdays!) It is safe to practice. Quite surprising how much more difficult it is, can be quite difficult to get down even with the engine at idle. I have been flying since 1969 but due to commitments and finances over the years am still and always will be a low hours pilot.

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For what it’s worth, I can’t really analyse how I land. Just do it with practice. I read about crosswind methods etc but with practice you just work out a method for your aircraft. Eventually you only stuff up about one landing in five. By which I mean rounding out too high, the usual problem, with a thump rather than a gentle kiss on the runway. If I flew every week I’m sure I would be better.

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2 hours ago, pmccarthy said:

For what it’s worth, I can’t really analyse how I land. Just do it with practice. I read about crosswind methods etc but with practice you just work out a method for your aircraft. Eventually you only stuff up about one landing in five. By which I mean rounding out too high, the usual problem, with a thump rather than a gentle kiss on the runway. If I flew every week I’m sure I would be better.

Yes, flying at least once a week gets you in the groove with repeatable performances regardless of strip or weather variations but very few pilots who fly for recreation are able to keep that frequency up, so just one in five sounds good.

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2 hours ago, pmccarthy said:

For what it’s worth, I can’t really analyse how I land. Just do it with practice. I read about crosswind methods etc but with practice you just work out a method for your aircraft. Eventually you only stuff up about one landing in five. By which I mean rounding out too high, the usual problem, with a thump rather than a gentle kiss on the runway. If I flew every week I’m sure I would be better.

I find that my worst landings, which are usually a bit of a balloon with a solid touchdown, happen after a longish trip, where your hands and feet aren't really doing much and feel a bit stiff after an hour or more of holding everything in one one position (for the most part). The best ones are after practicing manoeuvres which keep my hands and feet working.

Mind you, I'm not looking for a greaser, I want a single firmish touchdown with no energy left for a good short rollout. However satisfying a greaser feels, (and it does) it uses way more runway than arriving no left over energy.

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 Puttering around a familiar circuit and doing a few  landings is not enough to keep or be on top. You will often do one of your best landings in less than perfect conditions or when you haven't flown for months, because you put MORE EFFORT into it. This also presumes you do understand what you are trying to achieve at the time.. Oh what's he on about ? I'm trying to LAND .!!Everyone knows what that is.. Well DO THEY really? and are they prepared for it?

  I suggest do a couple of landings and then go out to the training area and do slow flight  close to stall. and figure eight turns using power and rudder properly into and out of the turns. Try to hold height accurately. Do this at a safe  height and clear for traffic. frequently.

   This is" best" done with an instructor ( one who will listen and be in tune with what YOU want. He/she may have a few additional inputs but you initiate this. You want it  It's your decision not something forced on you.

             Then go back and do a couple of landing s . Get the speed right  For the conditions and the landing weight and you flap setting, over the fence and in the centre of the runway and land on the "back" of the mainwheels, nose wheel off the ground always.

  If you do FAQ  (Fair average quality)  WELL CONTROLLED landings most of the time in varying conditions you are better equipped than if you do sqeakers in good conditions but are hopeless when it's not all going your way. (or someone's watching).  FLY the plane through the entire landing and the ground roll. It doesn't always respond the same, as the conditions aren't exactly the same. Nev

Edited by facthunter
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2 hours ago, M61A1 said:

find that my worst landings, which are usually a bit of a balloon with a solid touchdown, happen after a longish trip, where your hands and feet aren't really doing much and feel a bit stiff after an hour or more of holding everything in one one position (for the most part).

And it becomes quite a risk when the trip is around 3-4 hrs and has involved a large component of 'boring' flight. If you have an autopilot, disengage it for the last 15 mins into your destination to avoid this 'stiff' effect.

happy days,

 

stress%20and%20performance.jpg

Accident Risk and Flight Stage.gif

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2 hours ago, poteroo said:

And it becomes quite a risk when the trip is around 3-4 hrs and has involved a large component of 'boring' flight. If you have an autopilot, disengage it for the last 15 mins into your destination to avoid this 'stiff' effect.

happy days,

 

stress%20and%20performance.jpg

Accident Risk and Flight Stage.gif

I don't have an autopilot....but if it's not busy in the area, a couple of steep turns and lazy eights get the blood flowing again before entering the circuit area. (Quiet outback areas only, not populated places)

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Just flew 3 and a half hours trip this morning and plonked it down, no greaser but no problem either.

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54 minutes ago, pmccarthy said:

Just flew 3 and a half hours trip this morning and plonked it down, no greaser but no problem either.

 I hope you flew a 3 degree approach?

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ApenNameAndThatA.     I have been reading this thread with interest watching the various pieces of wisdom being passed on to you by long time pilots so you hopefully learn something, but you mentioned crossed controls decending on final and no one has picked up on this , so in the interest of your safety- listen up - to do this would to say the least very foolhardy to the point it could be catistrophic. There have been many aircraft stalled at low level or turning on final through not flying in a “balanced state”. The best thing you could do to reaquant yourself with your previously learned knowledge of flying would be to do some lessons in an actual aircraft with a competent instructor. Without practical demonstration of principals all the conjecture amounts to nothing. Good luck.

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One thing that may assist would be to contact the Foxbat agent and ask about instructors they recommend both close to you and where they are located.  Then you could do some flights with them to see the performance and do's and don'ts flying them.  The only two flights I have done in a Foxbat were with an instructor for a bfr and the flights were very educational about the aircraft.  This I believe would be money well spent and investment in safe flying knowledge.  Cheers and enjoy the Foxbat.

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3 hours ago, billwoodmason said:

ApenNameAndThatA.     I have been reading this thread with interest watching the various pieces of wisdom being passed on to you by long time pilots so you hopefully learn something, but you mentioned crossed controls decending on final and no one has picked up on this , so in the interest of your safety- listen up - to do this would to say the least very foolhardy to the point it could be catistrophic. There have been many aircraft stalled at low level or turning on final through not flying in a “balanced state”. The best thing you could do to reaquant yourself with your previously learned knowledge of flying would be to do some lessons in an actual aircraft with a competent instructor. Without practical demonstration of principals all the conjecture amounts to nothing. Good luck.

Thank you for your interest. I have not done much about landings in this lot of training yet. 

 

When I said “crossed controls”, what I was referring to was keeping parallel with the centre line with just the rudder, and keeping over the centreline with just the ailerons. I imagine that if you are banked one way, and holding the nose up, to stop yourself turning the same way (which is what would normally happen if you bank and keep the nose up) you would have to use opposite rudder. 

 

I must say, I am confused about the following. 1) on final, you are supposed to be stabilised the whole way, and 2) you are supposed to change from co-ordinated controls to crossed controls late in the approach, and 3) it seems to me that if you do 2 then you have not done 1. 

 

For bonus points, if you can clarify: since the crossed control approach is a slip (so the wind does not blow you off course), then the top wing should stall before the bottom one (because the slip stops the spanwise flow of air), which should make this approach a *little* safer than it looks???

 

(As opposed to a skidding turn onto final, where the bottom wing will stall first. (My flying instructor recons that it is because the bottom wing is slower. I recon it is because of shielding and increase spanwise airflow. These two things being unrelated to the increased AoA that happens *later* when you try and lift the stalled wing with the ailerons.) 

Edited by APenNameAndThatA
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58 minutes ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

Thank you for your interest. I have not done much about landings in this lot of training yet. 

 

When I said “crossed controls”, what I was referring to was keeping parallel with the centre line with just the rudder, and keeping over the centreline with just the ailerons. I imagine that if you are banked one way, and holding the nose up, to stop yourself turning the same way (which is what would normally happen if you bank and keep the nose up) you would have to use opposite rudder. 

 

I must say, I am confused about the following. 1) on final, you are supposed to be stabilised the whole way, and 2) you are supposed to change from co-ordinated controls to crossed controls late in the approach, and 3) it seems to me that if you do 2 then you have not done 1. 

 

For bonus points, if you can clarify: since the crossed control approach is a slip (so the wind does not blow you off course), then the top wing should stall before the bottom one (because the slip stops the spanwise flow of air), which should make this approach a *little* safer than it looks???

 

(As opposed to a skidding turn onto final, where the bottom wing will stall first. (My flying instructor recons that it is because the bottom wing is slower. I recon it is because of shielding and increase spanwise airflow. These two things being unrelated to the increased AoA that happens *later* when you try and lift the stalled wing with the ailerons.) 

Hi APen

 

One of our local instructors could show you what occurs at increased AOA and turns involved and you will see / experience what can occur to the upper wing.  I'm not an instructor and there may be good comment to these (your) comments including use of aileron in late final, etc.  My comment only meant to help.  Regards Mike

Edited by Blueadventures
added clarification (your)

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 I certainly don't think we/you should be going through the finer points of sideslipping  here. Its a crossed controls thing for sure and many don't do it well so shouldn't do it at all till they know  exactly what they are doing. There are a lot of instructors who don't really do it (or like it much). When you kick the plane straight after a crab approach you are concentrating on not having  a side load on the into wind wheel (or both) when it contacts the runway and also making sure the upwind wing doesn't get raised by the further effect of rudder (and the wind itself). After contact you roll along with "in to wind" aileron  applied to prevent the  wing lifting and enough rudder to oppose the wind  making it weathercock and turn into wind..  Nev

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1 hour ago, facthunter said:

 I certainly don't think we/you should be going through the finer points of sideslipping  here. Its a crossed controls thing for sure and many don't do it well so shouldn't do it at all till they know  exactly what they are doing. There are a lot of instructors who don't really do it (or like it much). When you kick the plane straight after a crab approach you are concentrating on not having  a side load on the into wind wheel (or both) when it contacts the runway and also making sure the upwind wing doesn't get raised by the further effect of rudder (and the wind itself). After contact you roll along with "in to wind" aileron  applied to prevent the  wing lifting and enough rudder to oppose the wind  making it weathercock and turn into wind..  Nev

How many newton metres of force are applied to the controls for each of those movements, and of what duration, and when is the action reversed.

 

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