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APenNameAndThatA

A Sivana with a bent wing.

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A while ago, I was offered a ride in a Sivana. The pilot said that there was some cosmetic damage to the right wing tip because the plane toppled over trying to exit the runway quickly. When I had a look, the last foot and a half of the wing was bent up - not nerely a cosmetic problem. To my reasoning, the plane was U/S. 

The pilot said that the plane had 40 hrs on it, including training, since to incident. 

 

I feel like a —— for posting this and like a —— for not posting it sooner. The morals of the story include 1) if a plane has been in an incident, make sure for yourself that the wings are still straight and 2) as Yogi Berra (?spelling) said, you can see a lot just by looking. 

 

There might have been only 1/1000 that the inside of the wing was f——d, but it’s the 1/1000 things that make the fatality rate 1to5/100 000 hrs, IMHO. 

 

The same instructor was telling me that he had just delivered a plane and had trouble seeing the ground because of the cloud. If you have been a student in this plane, and you read this, you know who you are and might know what you should do. 

 

Edited by APenNameAndThatA

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After reading a few of your posts about your experiences while getting your pilot training, I'm motivated to suggest that you find somewhere else to obtain your training. You seem to be involved with some shonky operators.

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 Damage to the wing tip in a situation like that applies a much greater force to the root of the wing due to the moment being increased by the longer distance  at which the force acted. ANY incident involving extra loads above normal  on an airframe such as this should call for an inspection of the spar and attach points at least prior to the next flight. Heavy landings likewise but who does that? Everyone should. You make your own luck. When you own your own plane you have control but even then I've seen people hit other aircraft and not leave a note for the owner. or hangar rashed.  Aeroplanes aren't shopping trolleys..Nev

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During the Berlin airlift there were DC3's flying with different wings, one wing short but "fat", the opposite wing  longer  & slender.

Still got the job done thou.

I saw it & passed a few bolts before being chased away. Mechanics didn't mind scruffy kids on the strip but security hated us, so gave them heaps.LoL

spacesailor

 

 

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14 hours ago, facthunter said:

 Damage to the wing tip in a situation like that applies a much greater force to the root of the wing due to the moment being increased by the longer distance  at which the force acted. ANY incident involving extra loads above normal  on an airframe such as this should call for an inspection of the spar and attach points at least prior to the next flight. Heavy landings likewise but who does that? Everyone should. You make your own luck. When you own your own plane you have control but even then I've seen people hit other aircraft and not leave a note for the owner. or hangar rashed.  Aeroplanes aren't shopping trolleys..Nev

Of course! But I didn’t think of it. Wings *are* longer than they are wide. 

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I read this thread with interest as the aircraft involved is mine.  Whilst the writer is correct in saying there was damage to the wingtip, he has somewhat exaggerated the extent of the damage.  The incident, which was duly reported,  also involved a prop striking the ground when the pilot hiring the aircraft was exiting a runway a bit too fast.  This involved a gearbox removal and overhaul by Bert Flood and a new set of prop blades.  Whilst this was being done the wing was inspected by a L2 and a Lame and found to have no structural damage. Damage was assessed as cosmetic and involved a 150 mm long abrasion to the fibreglass wing tip and slight scrape and denting to the lower wingtip skin which extended about 50mm from the tip.  The last foot and a half was not bent up but needed replacing as it was all one piece and had the scrape and dent in it.  

I remember your visit and as I recall you cited time and weather as your reason for not choosing to fly with me, but I felt at the time that you were being polite and I had noticed your attitude change when we discussed th wingtip. Also I felt that my casual attitude did not sit well with you.  I totally respect your decision not to fly with me. I have done the same with others.

I would have had more respect had you spoken to me about your concerns but really have no problems.

As for your concerns about me having trouble seeing the ground because of cloud, I don’t recall the context in which I said that, but I don’t deny it.  I use my mistakes and poor decisions as training tools and never claim to be perfect.  As anyone who has numerous thousands of hours experience will tell you, if they are being honest, it is easy to push the limits thinking we are ok only to then wish we hadn’t.  I use my indiscretions as examples to my students as to how easy it is to get things wrong.

I remember you were looking for an aircraft type to buy and I sincerely hope that your poor opinion of me did not cause you to shy away from the Savannah which is a mighty aircraft for those who want it’s special capabilities.  I hope you have found the aircraft that suits your needs and that you are enjoying your flying.

cheers. Bill

 

p.s. thanks to the responder who suggested that I am a shonky operator.  Been called lots of things in my time but this is my first shonky. Will wear it with pride

 

 

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Now where is my popcorn, this could get interesting. 😉

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I for one didn't take the original posters comments too seriously. While he may have had good intentions, from this and other posts he seems to lack practical knowledge about how aircraft work.

(no offence intended)

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Bill....I wouldnt be too concerned about it....I was about to post something but Kiwi's post just came through while typing this and I second Kiwi's comments whole heartedly especially the last half of his post

 

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I had not taken any offence. I felt the original post was not having a shot but needed clarification. Those who know me know I’m pretty easy going and I think this attitude is not always accepted. I’m fine with that. Cheers all and end of discussion.  Happy New Year

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2 hours ago, Flyingphot said:

I had not taken any offence. I felt the original post was not having a shot but needed clarification. Those who know me know I’m pretty easy going and I think this attitude is not always accepted. I’m fine with that. Cheers all and end of discussion.  Happy New Year

I think the heading of this thread probably says it all.

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On 30 December 2018 at 9:26 PM, APenNameAndThatA said:

A while ago, I was offered a ride in a Sivana. The pilot said that there was some cosmetic damage to the right wing tip because the plane toppled over trying to exit the runway quickly. When I had a look, the last foot and a half of the wing was bent up - not nerely a cosmetic problem. To my reasoning, the plane was U/S. 

The pilot said that the plane had 40 hrs on it, including training, since to incident. 

 

I feel like a —— for posting this and like a —— for not posting it sooner. The morals of the story include 1) if a plane has been in an incident, make sure for yourself that the wings are still straight and 2) as Yogi Berra (?spelling) said, you can see a lot just by looking. 

 

There might have been only 1/1000 that the inside of the wing was f——d, but it’s the 1/1000 things that make the fatality rate 1to5/100 000 hrs, IMHO. 

 

The same instructor was telling me that he had just delivered a plane and had trouble seeing the ground because of the cloud. If you have been a student in this plane, and you read this, you know who you are and might know what you should do. 

 

You like you have flown in aircraft like thrusters ,drifters,scouts,quick slivers ,trikes , weed hopers ,flight stars. These where all run of the mill ultralight aircraft 20 years ago . After hundreds of hours of them  bill,s become a lot easy going towards flight training because he had no more scare left in him  . All those aircraft the wing in the air  was nothing like the shape it was on the ground about the only think was the same was the colour of it .  Ait was nothing to see wing twist up the 100mm at the tip in any direction in rough time conditions . The savannah is a good aircaft and bill gets it into places the rest of us only dream of with a good over all flying school . You are lucky to have a instruction in the 1980,s you bought a single seater and your first lessons was solo  . As using your figure 1/1000 people you can miss read at first impressions . You did  the 1/1000 

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7 hours ago, Flyingphot said:

I read this thread with interest as the aircraft involved is mine.  Whilst the writer is correct in saying there was damage to the wingtip, he has somewhat exaggerated the extent of the damage.  The incident, which was duly reported,  also involved a prop striking the ground when the pilot hiring the aircraft was exiting a runway a bit too fast.  This involved a gearbox removal and overhaul by Bert Flood and a new set of prop blades.  Whilst this was being done the wing was inspected by a L2 and a Lame and found to have no structural damage. Damage was assessed as cosmetic and involved a 150 mm long abrasion to the fibreglass wing tip and slight scrape and denting to the lower wingtip skin which extended about 50mm from the tip.  The last foot and a half was not bent up but needed replacing as it was all one piece and had the scrape and dent in it.  

I remember your visit and as I recall you cited time and weather as your reason for not choosing to fly with me, but I felt at the time that you were being polite and I had noticed your attitude change when we discussed th wingtip. Also I felt that my casual attitude did not sit well with you.  I totally respect your decision not to fly with me. I have done the same with others.

I would have had more respect had you spoken to me about your concerns but really have no problems.

As for your concerns about me having trouble seeing the ground because of cloud, I don’t recall the context in which I said that, but I don’t deny it.  I use my mistakes and poor decisions as training tools and never claim to be perfect.  As anyone who has numerous thousands of hours experience will tell you, if they are being honest, it is easy to push the limits thinking we are ok only to then wish we hadn’t.  I use my indiscretions as examples to my students as to how easy it is to get things wrong.

I remember you were looking for an aircraft type to buy and I sincerely hope that your poor opinion of me did not cause you to shy away from the Savannah which is a mighty aircraft for those who want it’s special capabilities.  I hope you have found the aircraft that suits your needs and that you are enjoying your flying.

cheers. Bill

 

p.s. thanks to the responder who suggested that I am a shonky operator.  Been called lots of things in my time but this is my first shonky. Will wear it with pride

 

 

The wigntip, the last foot and a half was bent up. It was not just cosmetic danage. 

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6 hours ago, Kiwi said:

I for one didn't take the original posters comments too seriously. While he may have had good intentions, from this and other posts he seems to lack practical knowledge about how aircraft work.

(no offence intended)

The last foot and a half was bent up. You don’t need practical knowlege to know that. Furthermore, people on this site who do have practicable knowledge say that the wing should have been checked even if it wasn’t bent. So where does that leave your comment, Kiwi? 

 

6 hours ago, Kyle Communications said:

Bill....I wouldnt be too concerned about it....I was about to post something but Kiwi's post just came through while typing this and I second Kiwi's comments whole heartedly especially the last half of his post

 

Ditto, Kyle. 

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1 hour ago, dan3111 said:

You like you have flown in aircraft like thrusters ,drifters,scouts,quick slivers ,trikes , weed hopers ,flight stars. These where all run of the mill ultralight aircraft 20 years ago . After hundreds of hours of them  bill,s become a lot easy going towards flight training because he had no more scare left in him  . All those aircraft the wing in the air  was nothing like the shape it was on the ground about the only think was the same was the colour of it .  Ait was nothing to see wing twist up the 100mm at the tip in any direction in rough time conditions . The savannah is a good aircaft and bill gets it into places the rest of us only dream of with a good over all flying school . You are lucky to have a instruction in the 1980,s you bought a single seater and your first lessons was solo  . As using your figure 1/1000 people you can miss read at first impressions . You did  the 1/1000 

So, if a wing hits the ground, the spar *doesn’t* need to be checked? Thanks for the heads up! 

 

Furthermore, conflating stick and ruddder skills and being a top bloke with being a safe operator is ludicrous. 

 

When you stood in front of the wingtip, with the bit of ground-off metal, you could not tell that the tip was bent. If yoy stood on the other side of the engine, you could. And, by the same method, you could tell that the other wingtip was not bent.

 

I must say, this thread is most revealing. Not only am I supposed to be deferential to my seniors in general, but it turns out that if someone is an experienced pilot, they are excused from having to get the wing checked after the tip hits the ground! 

 

 

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43 minutes ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

So, if a wing hits the ground, the spar *doesn’t* need to be checked? Thanks for the heads up! 

 

Furthermore, conflating stick and ruddder skills and being a top bloke with being a safe operator is ludicrous. 

 

When you stood in front of the wingtip, with the bit of ground-off metal, you could not tell that the tip was bent. If yoy stood on the other side of the engine, you could. And, by the same method, you could tell that the other wingtip was not bent.

 

I must say, this thread is most revealing. Not only am I supposed to be deferential to my seniors in general, but it turns out that if someone is an experienced pilot, they are excused from having to get the wing checked after the tip hits the ground! 

 

 

What did this bit from post #8  mean then??????

8 hours ago, Flyingphot said:

Whilst this was being done the wing was inspected by a L2 and a Lame and found to have no structural damage. Damage was assessed as cosmetic and involved a 150 mm long abrasion to the fibreglass wing tip and slight scrape and denting to the lower wingtip skin which extended about 50mm from the tip.

 

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10 minutes ago, M61A1 said:

What did this bit from post #8  mean then??????

 

It means apen is more experienced than the L2 and Lame?

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1 hour ago, APenNameAndThatA said:

So, if a wing hits the ground, the spar *doesn’t* need to be checked? Thanks for the heads up! 

 

Furthermore, conflating stick and ruddder skills and being a top bloke with being a safe operator is ludicrous. 

 

When you stood in front of the wingtip, with the bit of ground-off metal, you could not tell that the tip was bent. If yoy stood on the other side of the engine, you could. And, by the same method, you could tell that the other wingtip was not bent.

 

I must say, this thread is most revealing. Not only am I supposed to be deferential to my seniors in general, but it turns out that if someone is an experienced pilot, they are excused from having to get the wing checked after the tip hits the ground! 

 

 

You can tell you are new into flying ,as if you have been flying while you would no a lot better then put all this on a public forum . If you have a problem with how that person is  operating a school aircraft talk to him . The flying group is a very small group you will soon run out of friends . 

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2 hours ago, turboplanner said:

It means apen is more experienced than the L2 and Lame?

Not saying it's the case here, but there are some dodgy L2's and bogus LAME's getting about RAAus.  It'd be good to have a look at the wing tip.

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Be aware that the main spar does not extend all the way to the tip on the Savannah. The last 600mm is an extension made from light sheet in a form that is strong enough for it's purpose there, but on impact it can deform without carrying the load directly to the main spar. This is an excellent design feature that can absorb just such a impact as described without overloading the main spar. 

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23 hours ago, dan3111 said:

You can tell you are new into flying ,as if you have been flying while you would no a lot better then put all this on a public forum . If you have a problem with how that person is  operating a school aircraft talk to him . The flying group is a very small group you will soon run out of friends . 

I was aware of the choice I was making. I should have said something at the time and am sorry I didn’t. 

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