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I've come across another example of a neophyte aviator buying a plane on impulse. This fellow had his own, successful business in a non-aviation related field. He made the decision to get his pilot's licence. He was still in the early pre-solo stage of his training when he decided that he would buy his own plane, which he did.

 

Now, it was not even certain that he would complete his training, and if he did, his first hundred hours or so would be Day VFR flying. But, seemingly having the readies, he went out and bought a powerful IFR category plane. Perhaps he thought he could subsidize his financial outlay by putting the aircraft 'on line'.  One has to wonder if the supporting information for the purchase was studied with the same care he may have put into submitting a tender for work in the non-aviation field he worked in.

 

Well, the plane he purchased was pushing 40 years old. I don't know if he had expert do a pre-purchase inspection for him, or if he just bought it off the ad. Before too long Annual Inspection time comes around. As you might have guessed. the inspection by the careful LAME tasked with the job revealed a few maintenance jobs that could be reasonably expected to be needed in a plane of this age. Things like a welding repair to the exhaust pipe, a few worn bits, spark plugs, filters etc. However the body-blow came from the instrument certification. Remember that this plane was registered in the IFR category.

 

Well, inspection of one of the IFR instruments showed it was faulty and needed to be replaced. Sounds simple enough. Whip out the dud part and put back a new one. But this plane was pushing 40 years since manufacture. The original equipment manufacturer (OEM) had long ago gone out of business, so a new OEM part did not exist. The owner wanted to keep the plane in IFR category. So it was decided to obtain a similarly functioning part from another supplier. But the new part did not fit the mounting for the old part.  Not a big deal. Just design and fit a suitable mounting.

 

But wait! this is a certified aircraft. You can't just make anything you like and fit it to the plane. You have to get aeronautical engineers to design the fitting and document how and where it is to be installed. That requires an Engineering Order. Can you see where this is going? Every step means more and more dollars. Eventually the bill to certify the aircraft in the IFR category cost more than the cost of the Annual Inspection, even though the cost of the replacement part itself was only about 10% of the eventual total.

 

Not long after the Certificate of Airworthiness was issued, the owner sold the aircraft. I'm not sure if he even completed his training.

 

The moral to the story is that you can buy an old airplane cheaply, but be prepared to put bags of money into it. It that unrealistic? NO. Think about the dream car of your youth. Do you have friends who have bought something like an EH, or or XP Futura to restore? With a bit of searching you can find a rough one for under $5000, or maybe even a bag of peanuts. But to get it to a show-winning condition your friends will be happy to throw thousands at it. It's the same if you buy a cheap old Cessna or Cherokee. Buy cheap, but in the knowledge to end up having something you can wow the crowds with, know what the final cost will be, and that you can bear it.

 

I think I could go out now and buy a TriPacer for under $5000, because it hasn't flown for years; the wing tips, at least, need replacing due to rot; the engine needs to be overhauled because it has been sitting, and it needs a complete recovering. Not to mention the jobs that would come out of the CofA inspection. Doing a lot of the work myself, I wouldn't expect to have a razoo left out of at least $50,000. Would the plane be worth $55,000 on the market? I doubt it. But it would be my plane; restored to my liking. And, hopefully, not having gone over the budget I set for the project before I bought the plane.

 

Here's an example of how one Yank started with a Cherokee bought for one dollar 

 

 

And here's one where the owner went the whole hog:

 

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 Indeed . It's a trap for "Young" players where young means inexperienced in the ways of aeroplane ownership. I was around then the Cherokee 140 was brand new and flew one  "NEW"  They smell beaut.

   .  There are some planes I wouldn't spend a lot on and that's one of them. Reason? It's a fairly ordinary aeroplane and it  costs about as much to extensively repair as something better and more worthwhile if you research it. In fact you would be better mucking around with a Carbon Cub or a Murphy Rebel or Glassair if you built/buy them right.

     The price you can pick  some of these  had it planes up for is the least of your worries. Some are not worth having even if they paid you a $100 to take it away. unless you want to put it on a pole at your gate, and it will rot away and fall off inside 5 years. Nev

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I follow a PA-28 FAcebook site and it is amazing what the Americans will spend on them. New interiors, complete avionics upgrades, almost anything you can think of that is legal. They acknowledge that this will not reflect in resale price but do it anyway.

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How much you spend on an old plane depends on your feelings for it. How many people spend bags of cash on their cars or boats? These old planes are just the same, especially if the make and model brings back happy memories. If I had won the $80 million on Powerball tonight, I might have gone looking at an old TriPacer and spent heaps on it. I know that the money could not be recouped in my lifetime, but while I was alive I would have a plane that made me happy.

 

My wife wouldn't let me buy or build a plane when I retired, but she OK'd the purchase of a motor bike. So I bought the type of bike I had when I was a kid. I spent a couple of thousand on it. Now it is valued at quite a few thousand more than the purchase price + refurb costs. Sometimes old stuff gets more valuable as time goes by. 

 

However, we are getting into thread drift. The gist of my first post was that looking to buy a plane through rose coloured glasses can only result in a big hit to the hip pocket nerve and a terminal dose of disappointment.

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I have always loved the look of  a strait tailed Cessna tail dragger BUT reality is I can not  justify the fun little Zephyr I fly round in, at a fraction of the acquisition/running cost of even a C 150. So like OME I hope for a big win on lotto so that I can have a stable of old uneconomical aircraft just for fun.

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"One make" clubs can be pretty testing environment/ places where people argue over colours and paint lining widths model changes  etc. that's a lot different to making the plane what YOU want. As to going back to what you had as a youth, How is THAT a good idea when you were as poor as a church mouse and only had junk out  of necessity. Like never likely to get what your really wanted or lusted after.. In an aircraft the plane must fly nicely. It's a very individual thing, and what does it for someone doesn't do it for all.. when I lived on the beach  A PBY would have done it for me.. My Citabria  was a special (but not perfect) thing for me too, and a lot more realistic to run. Nev.. Nev

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 One of the most expensive to run and repair. I'm not a Vee tail fan though . Don't mind the others of the Bonanza type for strength and performance.. Nev

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Never got to fly the straight tail - Debonair or A36. Civil Flying only had V-tails when I flew there - CFH and CFK.

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On ‎1‎/‎10‎/‎2019 at 11:28 AM, old man emu said:

Think about the dream car of your youth. Do you have friends who have bought something like an EH, or or XP Futura to restore? 

 

 

Some of us are old enough to have bought an EH Holden or XP Futura in our youth that was not old enough to need restoring yet.

 

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The scary thing is thinking about what elapsed time really means. In 1965 a 40 year old car was a 1925 Ford or Chev or similar with wooden wheels. Today a 40 year old car is a 1979 model, perfectly modern and useable if you have one, say a HZ Holden. Similarly my 1974 Archer will always seem new to me because it came out when I was already a young pilot and it was highly desirable but out of reach at that time.

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 New cars are so much better. Good feel power steering, safer (airbags crumple zones, powerful anti skid brakes, demisters, safe door locks, good handling and cornering  strong roof, and pillars, good, low unsprung weight suspension excellent wide and modern design tyres, quiet and powerful and plenty of legroom. even small cars). and in terms of cost/ average wages, cheaper than they have ever been. and do more miles before they need engine builds. Mostly never done at all these days.. Not value for money. .

  . You have to be a dedicated fan to rebuild, fix and drive the old stuff.. I've worked on just about all of it. Panel work, engines diffs gearboxes brakes. There has to be better things to do. Drive a TC MG and use a tooth guard when you go over a railway crossing and be ready to grab the door when it comes open with the hinges at the rear. . Now a plane or a bike. That's different. they are ALL good. They don't have heavy steering.. etc etc. and what a view... Nev

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Old K - I think the comments in the BBC article, provide a dose of reality, to the journalists optimistic outlook!

I have little doubt that electric, driverless, Uber-style, on-demand transport, will certainly become common sometime in the future - but certainly not in 10 years - and certainly, not outside the major cities.

As to air-taxi's becoming widespread - not within 25 yrs, by my estimation - until a vast amount of engineering, regulatory and safety issues are overcome, to produce virtually fail-safe transport.

Edited by onetrack
addendum..

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On the grounds of occupant protection; occupant comfort; ease of driving, and economical fuel consumption, you'd be mad not to be driving a relatively new vehicle if you could. However, modern cars are simply a means to get from A to B. I've long ago given up trying to identify the model of any car in the traffic around me. The best I get to is identifying the maker from the badge on the boot. One maker's cars are fairly indistinguishable from another maker's now. The guiding factor in body design is the reduction in aerodynamic drag, so it stands to reason that all makers are going to produce similar body shapes in each category of vehicle. Even colour choice is restricted.  

 

(Talking of colours, have you noticed the current crop of dark grey cars? That colour is dangerous as it camouflages the car, making it disappear into the background road surface. Where are the bright colours? Have Millenials lost their sense of colour excitement? What would they say to the return of dark bronze coloured cars and glorious Mission Brown houses?)

 

If you are enthusiastic enough about the cars and planes of your younger days, and buy into one for restoration, you'll know that it is not going to be done for financial gain. You'll be paying and paying to gain satisfaction. Is that any different from those who enjoy a pint and a punt, or regularly do 18 holes? 

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The colour's not so much of a problem as it was OME; the latest models have mandatory LED driving lights on with the engine running. Bet you'll notice and be irritated by them next time you go out.

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I put an engine operated running light on a car in the late fifties ! The stupid cops were forever pulling me over & telling me "Illegal" yet No law forbidding it.

Before the New side-light indicators became commonplace, Fiftytwo Morris Oxford, with alight, for fun.

In NZ I painted a Huge shamrock on the roof of a 1948 Austin A 40, Had a couple of chopper's follow me.

How did I know, All the people pointing up to those helicopters.'

spacesailor

 

 

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3 hours ago, Old Koreelah said:

And the end of that era is nigh:

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-45786690

This is a loser on three counts OK.

 

1. It's electric and electric's running out of rose coloured glass, since we are yet to solve the battery, weight, total cost of life, and CO2 gap needed.

 

2. It has to be autonomous so it can reposition itself etc. My experience with a Level 1 autonomous car is rapidly curing me of the thought that somehow the nerds had found the magic algorithm. Take Adaptive cruise control; you set your cruise control as normal, and your car reads the distance from the car in front and slows down when it does, then accelerates back up to the setting. I slobbered for that for years; no more constantly changing the setting to suit the turkey in front, or disengaging it. However, I  didn't realise that (a) for safety ACC sets the distance behind the car in front to match what a 93 year old would choose. (b) if the driver ahead lifts his foot suddenly then unless his brake lights go on you have no warning as your car instantly matches the degree of slowing, so you stretch into your shoulder harnesses, and if he brakes hard, you brake just as hard, rather than using your spare space to slow down more gently for the obstruction which caused him to brake. I normally get 150,000 + km from brake pads, so that will be coming down to about 20,000. Worst of all, on a city freeway, the car ahead slows, your car slows, and there's a big juicy gap for three other cars to slide into thinking you've just decided to slow down. Now I don't use the Cruise Control. The anti collision detectors go off if there's a traffic light pole  beside you, or a piece of grass sticking up, or, apparently if they just get a fright. The Lane Keeping Assist, which produces shimmy if you cross a lane line, and leaves it on just for a little in case you're asleep, has improved my lane precision as much as the cane used to improve my maths, but it can't cope with the way local councils paint white lines all over the place, and sometimes you shimmy like a hot dancer.

 

That's just Level 1.

 

The fatality rate to date of Level 4, I seem to remember is greater than human error, and Level 5 is a long long way off.

 

3. It requires a sociological human shift like giving up your wife and renting a plastic dummy. Uber still is the biggest car fleet operator in the world but doesn't own a car, but if you ride in an Uber you have a chance of being raped, stabbed, rooked or being accused of the same, so the gloss has thinned somewhat. This vehicle would require Level 5 autonomy plus additional technology so it could relocate to a desirable pick up point and interface with a charger, and wash itself between pick ups, which, for example is what Avis/Budget/Thrifty will do for you, and it would have to compete with local "Use and Return" services, where you ride your bike to a car parked at the pick up point, use a code to unlock it, go and pick up your item from Bunnings, then return it to the parking spot. Silly me, I forgot Bunnings will give you a ute at the store. Use and Return also owns no cars; you simply register your car for the service, get the security system fitted, and your car will be earning money when you aren't using it. You can then ride your bike to........

 

There's nothing wrong with dreaming; Ford and GM actually built gas turbine trucks, and we had concept cars with atomic power units forecast to sweep the world within a  decade in the last century. I've also drawn plenty of futuristic cars and trucks, but turning them into repeat orders at a production profit is the snag.

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32 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

This is a loser on three counts OK.

 

1. It's electric and electric's running out of rose coloured glass, since we are yet to solve the battery, weight, total cost of life, and CO2 gap needed.

 

2. It has to be autonomous so it can reposition itself etc. My experience with a Level 1 autonomous car is rapidly curing me of the thought that somehow the nerds had found the magic algorithm. Take Adaptive cruise control; you set your cruise control as normal, and your car reads the distance from the car in front and slows down when it does, then accelerates back up to the setting. I slobbered for that for years; no more constantly changing the setting to suit the turkey in front, or disengaging it. However, I  didn't realise that (a) for safety ACC sets the distance behind the car in front to match what a 93 year old would choose. (b) if the driver ahead lifts his foot suddenly then unless his brake lights go on you have no warning as your car instantly matches the degree of slowing, so you stretch into your shoulder harnesses, and if he brakes hard, you brake just as hard, rather than using your spare space to slow down more gently for the obstruction which caused him to brake. I normally get 150,000 + km from brake pads, so that will be coming down to about 20,000. Worst of all, on a city freeway, the car ahead slows, your car slows, and there's a big juicy gap for three other cars to slide into thinking you've just decided to slow down. Now I don't use the Cruise Control. The anti collision detectors go off if there's a traffic light pole  beside you, or a piece of grass sticking up, or, apparently if they just get a fright. The Lane Keeping Assist, which produces shimmy if you cross a lane line, and leaves it on just for a little in case you're asleep, has improved my lane precision as much as the cane used to improve my maths, but it can't cope with the way local councils paint white lines all over the place, and sometimes you shimmy like a hot dancer.

 

That's just Level 1.

 

The fatality rate to date of Level 4, I seem to remember is greater than human error, and Level 5 is a long long way off.

 

3. It requires a sociological human shift like giving up your wife and renting a plastic dummy. Uber still is the biggest car fleet operator in the world but doesn't own a car, but if you ride in an Uber you have a chance of being raped, stabbed, rooked or being accused of the same, so the gloss has thinned somewhat. This vehicle would require Level 5 autonomy plus additional technology so it could relocate to a desirable pick up point and interface with a charger, and wash itself between pick ups, which, for example is what Avis/Budget/Thrifty will do for you, and it would have to compete with local "Use and Return" services, where you ride your bike to a car parked at the pick up point, use a code to unlock it, go and pick up your item from Bunnings, then return it to the parking spot. Silly me, I forgot Bunnings will give you a ute at the store. Use and Return also owns no cars; you simply register your car for the service, get the security system fitted, and your car will be earning money when you aren't using it. You can then ride your bike to........

 

There's nothing wrong with dreaming; Ford and GM actually built gas turbine trucks, and we had concept cars with atomic power units forecast to sweep the world within a  decade in the last century. I've also drawn plenty of futuristic cars and trucks, but turning them into repeat orders at a production profit is the snag.

Plus it might be fine if you live in a big city and never travel out of it. 

But plenty of us need something that will tow a trailer or horse float, will at the drop of a hat have to drive to nearby towns and frequently travel to not-so-nearby towns. 

 

And with lots lots of people moving to satellite towns outside the big cities and commuting if you want to go down to the local hardware shop etc there’s probably not going to be s fleet of them  in your neck of the woods. They’ll all be in the city. 

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2 hours ago, turboplanner said:

The colour's not so much of a problem as it was OME; the latest models have mandatory LED driving lights on with the engine running. Bet you'll notice and be irritated by them next time you go out.

It's not a problem when the grey cars are approaching with running lights showing. It's when these cars are coming from the side, say for instance, coming out of a shaded side street.

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10 minutes ago, old man emu said:

It's not a problem when the grey cars are approaching with running lights showing. It's when these cars are coming from the side, say for instance, coming out of a shaded side street.

Good point, just started the engine; strong side lighting at the front, no illumination at all at rear.

C1FC4083-A5DD-4851-B6B9-65019AA0A795.jpeg

5A36643E-6642-4DF9-B9DE-312916801D64.jpeg

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53 minutes ago, old man emu said:

It's not a problem when the grey cars are approaching with running lights showing. It's when these cars are coming from the side, say for instance, coming out of a shaded side street.

Might be time to see the optometrist or maybe hand in the licence if you can't see a car regardless of colour in a side street at a reasonable distance....:stirrer:

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5 hours ago, M61A1 said:

Might be time to see the optometrist or maybe hand in the licence if you can't see a car regardless of colour in a side street at a reasonable distance....:stirrer:

He's right, it is a problem; thousands of people would have to hand their licences back. Some colours come to the top in detailed statistics.

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4 hours ago, turboplanner said:

thousands of people would have to hand their licences back

They might actually find that makes the biggest difference in the road toll...

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Notice the difference in opinion between the driver from the Country (M61A1) and the one from the City (Turbo). Here's an intersection in Dalby, Qld (Country) and one in Narellan

 

                              Dalby  image.png            Narellan    image.thumb.png.936e25368165bb8942c28c685c3724a7.png     Moorabbin   image.png

 

The driver from the country town doesn't have to cope with the short sight distances and high traffic flows that the city driver does.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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