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fly_tornado

CASA set to "fix" community service flights

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23 minutes ago, Downunder said:

The living go on living, and the living go on dying ......

At what point do we accept the risk?

The risk factor for Australian road users is 1 per 833,333 missions

The risk factor for RA aircraft occupants is about 1 per 20,000 missions

The risk factor you mentioned for Angel Flight would be 1 per 23,000 missions

 

This means that driving a car is 40 time safer than flying in an RA aircraft or in an Angel Flight

 

I don't have the statistics on GA CPL flown aircraft, but that would be an interesting comparison.

 

Whatever, people from another industry than RA have assessed the situation and made their decision.

23 minutes ago, Downunder said:

Do we become so risk adverse that the nation comes to a standstill, because this is where the "safety (at all costs) industry" is sending us....

Last time I checked, the Clear Creek Mine in the Bowen Basin had the toughest safety measures of all the mines in the region, and also the best production efficiency. What industries are doing all the time is developing better ways to keep productivity up. Some don't but that's life. I've previously mentioned the floor pan press at the GM Elizabeth plant, where the six operators, in noisy conditions turned and sat on a seat when the part where their arms had to go into the press had finished; Each seat had a switch, when all six switches were activated the current flowed to the press control and the press operated. Effectively the people on that station went from being bawled at if they were caught sitting down, to getting to sit down for a couple of hours every day.

23 minutes ago, Downunder said:

Do we sit in front of the tv, do nothing, grow obese and have a heart attack?  What an unfulfilling life.... but hey, it was safe!

It's certainly not safe; in fact lifestyle diseases like heart attacks, lung cancers, skin cancers, strokes (after you take out the smaller non-lifestyle causes) have a monster fatality rate.

23 minutes ago, Downunder said:

Other nations are striving ahead of us in leaps and bounds but our isolation and our (govt promoted) ignorance leave us in the dark.

You should be able to find the statistics for that.

 

 

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If you watch the YouTube videos on heavy equipment accidents the first reaction might be that these Chinese and Asian operators are fools. But they are getting things done like we used to do 50 years ago. Putting diggers on the sides of mountains, trying to drive dozers through flooded ravines. Some them get killed, but we all gotta die somehow. Meanwhile they build a freeway in a few months that takes us five or ten years.

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48 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

The risk factor for Australian road users is 1 per 833,333 missions

The risk factor for RA aircraft occupants is about 1 per 20,000 missions

The risk factor you mentioned for Angel Flight would be 1 per 23,000 mission

Where did these stats come from because as far a I know only stats for hours flown are collected and to call those stats dodgy would be an understatement?

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45 minutes ago, pmccarthy said:

Some them get killed, but we all gotta die somehow. Meanwhile they build a freeway in a few months that takes us five or ten years.

If today's safety standards were applied to the Snowy Mountains project it would still be being built. I watched a road repair at a minor intersection the other day - 3 people actually worked and at least 5 did traffic control and a further 2 watched.

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4 minutes ago, Jim McDowall said:

If today's safety standards were applied to the Snowy Mountains project it would still be being built. I watched a road repair at a minor intersection the other day - 3 people actually worked and at least 5 did traffic control and a further 2 watched.

Today's standards are not being applied to the archaic way the Snowy Mountains project was built, involving at times picks and shovels and 8 tonne tippers.

Victoria is building underground loops with machines that are being assembled at the operating depth, and which will allow them to operate autonomously and safely for the next few years, virtually risk-free. The old Snowy Mountains techniques couldn't get anywhere near that efficiency per worker.

 

Your story about the traffic control is mirrored in the old letters to the newspapers complaining about the local council where there was one man on a shovel and six looking on.

They never manage to put the whole story together where what they saw was a brief period where it was more efficient to have one person doing a particular operation which then allowed the others to resume work. You soon wake up to what's going on when you assist a group doing something similar. Traffic control is partly for safety, the stop the small percentage of drivers jumping in front of others, or passing under the noses of tippers. I do a lot of travelling on our major highways, and it has made an amazing difference to traffic flows, and also allows active construction around blind corners etc.

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23 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

what they saw was a brief period where it was more efficient to have one person

This was over a period of several hours. I too spend 15 -20 hours per week on the roads , country and city, and it never ceases to amaze me the way traffic control is abused, for example 25kph for well over a kilometre beyond the workzone on an open (ie no vision obstacles) road and those controls left in place after working hours. I work in the construction industry and the pedantry of some site safety officers is unbelievable whilst others simply fill out the forms and stay in their airconditioned hut and work gets done by people who know what they are doing and what the risks are.

My point about the Snowy is mirrorred by CASA's inability to complete writing proper regulations 30 years after the CAA came into force and yet (for example) immigration regulations can be drafted and implemented literally overnight. Safety is CASA's pre-occupation and only a lower order concern for immigration. Somewhere is the sensible middle.

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4 hours ago, turboplanner said:

The risk factor for Australian road users is 1 per 833,333 missions

The risk factor for RA aircraft occupants is about 1 per 20,000 missions

The risk factor you mentioned for Angel Flight would be 1 per 23,000 missions

what is the accident rate for ambulances?

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27 minutes ago, fly_tornado said:

what is the accident rate for ambulances?

It will be there in the statistics somewhere, haven't looked it up, but these days they stabilise the patient on the scene, and it appears to be working so much better, that I'm seeing video of specialist hospital staff travelling to the scene. this process has moved the medical emergency response forward vs the incident also.

 

There also seems to be a belief on here that Angel Flights were doing ambulance work. The States have dedicated ambulance aircraft including helicopters which transport you through your ambulance subscription. The Angel Flight site should have what they do, but from my memory it is just facilitating country people getting to and from the city in a faster way.

Edited by turboplanner

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you need to compare apples to apples.

 

can you dig up highway accidents per highway distance travelled, that's a more relevant comparison to just passenger vehicle deaths 

 

also can you dig up per 1000 deaths of passengers in road transit

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3 minutes ago, fly_tornado said:

you need to compare apples to apples.

 

can you dig up highway accidents per highway distance travelled, that's a more relevant comparison to just passenger vehicle deaths 

 

also can you dig up per 1000 deaths of passengers in road transit

If you want that you can dig it up, just drill down through the data.

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2 hours ago, fly_tornado said:

I don't know where to start, I just want you to present more accurate comparisons

Sure, $154.00/ hr and I’ll find anything that’s available.

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2 hours ago, turboplanner said:

If you want that you can dig it up, just drill down through the data.

Digging, drilling, blasting, filling. I'll give you a job on a mine.

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1 hour ago, turboplanner said:

Sure, $154.00/ hr and I’ll find anything that’s available.

Could you also charge the same for your opinions?

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Its not safe to sit in front of the tv all day. Being inactive is 4 times as dangerous ( on mortality statistics) than flying. 

So if CASA stops people  flying and they  become inactive then 4 will die for every one saved.  CASA would treat this as a win because the deaths due to inactivity are not counted.

Our real argument is with the pollies who set up such a system.

 

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Probly should look at survival and treatment rate for the critically ill patients these flights move around the place.

A large number of rural people battle cancer without treatments available in major centres and the survival rates for those in regional vs cities bears this out

 

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5 hours ago, jetjr said:

Probly should look at survival and treatment rate for the critically ill patients these flights move around the place.

A large number of rural people battle cancer without treatments available in major centres and the survival rates for those in regional vs cities bears this out

 

 

None of these patients is critically ill. If they are they don’t fit the criteria for AF. They would be transported by RFDS or emergency services or aerial ambulance etc. 

These patients are stable patients who are usually going for follow up check ups, for tests or scans etc not available in their own communities etc. 

They are the sort of patient who could take the bus, taxi or private car to a local doctors office or hospital outpatients clinic if such a thing existed in their community. 

To make out or imply that AF performs a medical activity for critically ill patients is incorrect. 

 

But thats not not to imply that AF doesn’t do a real and needed job. They certainly do,  as transport to a facility is just as important as the service at the facility. 

 

 

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You are not generally  critically ill to start with. The mortality figures are in agreement with jetjr in that country people can miss out on advanced diagnostic tests which are available in the city, and therefore the angel flights save lives.

 

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Some peopl here have never been exposed to the practical logistics of accessing treatment in a big city from a rural location. Angel Flight is a golden much valued service on a par with the CFA.

 

if you live more than 3-4 hours drive from a city, without Angel Flight, your doctors appointment schedule almost always dooms you to two days lost time for you and your driver as well as a nights accommodation plus meals. I speak as the dutiful driver for my wife who has been through 2 years of breast cancer treatment. We live 3 hours from the city.

 

We made at least 30 trips per year by car, hired an apartment at times and spent upwards of $20,000 per year in the logistics of getting my wife to and from hospital. Then there was the 90 plus days of my lost time in chauffeuring my patient.

 

Angel Flight is like gold. I fail to see how it is possible to arrange a course of treatment if you live 3+ hours from a capital without totally dislocating your existence.

Think scans(ultrasound, x-ray, mri), blood tests, biopsies, consultations, surgery and it’s follow up, chemo, oncology, radiation, dietitians and reconstructive surgery - all involving. busy specialists with punishing appointment schedules that simply cannot be rearranged to suit country train and bus schedules let alone RPY air transport. 

 

Angel Flight makes this process partially bearable. Without it country folk might as well give up and die.

 

 

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My wife finished a course of 33 radiation therapy treatments last Monday. She had one treatment each day (Weekends and Public Holidays excluded). She could not drive because she was receiving morphine for pain relief. Fortunately, most of out appointments were for before 9:00am, and the trip from door to door took about 25 minutes. Still, from the time we woke up until we got back home, we spent about 3-4 hours of the day. 

 

You have to either be a country resident, or have family members in the country to understand how distance adversely impacts on getting medical treatment. While the wife was undergoing her course of treatment, we met people who had to drive about an hour each way, each day to get their treatment. And these people lived in the nearby Southern Highlands. Imagine if you worked in a mining town like Cobar or Parkes and had to travel to a major city like Dubbo or Orange to see a Specialist or get treatment. Also, Specialists don't live in places like Dubbo, Orange, Wagga or Tamworth. They live in the Eastern Suburbs and take the morning flight out of Kingsford-Smith (if there is one).

 

I can't see the difference between a person undergoing  a course of treatment which does not require a hospital stay, flying in a aircraft maintained to the standards required by CASA, and a group of friends flying in the same aircraft from a rural location to a metropolitan airport in order for them  to attend a football or cricket match.

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OME, I used to live four hours from Adelaide and six from Melbourne, and yes it is a pain. At those distances the family made it a two day event so there was no rush at the City and, but I can understand the examples you're making where what is usually a half day for someone in the city often becomes two days lost from the property.

Last week I helped arrange a patient who had spent two years in Adelaide being processed, entailing 37,000 km by the family to be transferred to a regional town an hour away, so those of us involved know the toll that long haul takes on a family.

 

In 2016 I went to live in a town in Queensland for two months and had to wait for a third of that to see a specialist, and he was four hours away, and that had to be a two day event.

Prior to that specialist moving to the country, it would have involved a flight each way, so possibly one day, but more likely two.

 

I hope it went well for you, but from may experience with the chemo and radiation programme the last thing you need is stress on top of stress.

 

In the case of the Nhill crash,  access would be about 3 or 4 hours by car, and a couple of hours more for something like a cataract, or check up.

For Mount Gambier, about five hours by car, 7 by bus or 30 minutes by air.

 

I don't think there's any doubt that Angel Flight performs a very helpful function.

 

In recent trips, talking to country people, the message is they go to their local hospitals to die; they don't have the same sort of confidence that there'll be a specialist on hand, so if it's something serious they'll drive to the city, even if it takes nine hours.

 

Victoria in particular, and some other states have overloaded their city infrastructure with population growth plus immigration, and so are looking very closely at upgrading their satellite cities to get the flow of people flowing out into the country instead of vice versa. When that happens you will see $50 million hospitals and a much more even supply of services.

 

Even  now, when you consider the number of people needing transport to and from the cities, it's amazing that the feeder airline industry hasn't identified the potential numbers and started to set more links up.

 

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