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Never again will I order a ‘free’ document from CASA. In the interest of doing things properly I ordered their free booklet on ‘Radio Procedures in Non-Controlled Airspace’ only to be charged $15 for postage and handling. What I received was a four page, yes say it again 4 page booklet as depicted in the attached photographs. I swear this is the biggest rip-off I have experienced in my entire 70+ years.

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106CE526-178A-4385-9708-C80D1BDA1F5C.jpeg

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Get your own back .

Photo copy it, Put it on Eba or gumtry, the charge $ 2.50 for an "Electronic Doc" copy.

Should get more than three sales !. LoL

spacesailor

 

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Interesting none the less. I always give a downwind and base call but according to the book I only have to give a taxying  or take-off call unless there is other traffic. That is when flying circuits!

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Posted (edited)

Read the small print. You could have ordered several othe r items for the same postage.

Edited by Yenn
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43 minutes ago, derekliston said:

Interesting none the less. I always give a downwind and base call but according to the book I only have to give a taxying  or take-off call unless there is other traffic. That is when flying circuits!

Quite right. There are no mandatory calls in CTAF unless to avoid a collision. All are advisory. I give a 10 mile call & an overhead call. If there is no-one else in the circuit that's it. On takeoff I give entering/ backtrack (with intentions) & rolling calls. When there is other traffic I call each leg in the circuit or departing call when leaving.

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 It's a catch 22, IF something happens  allegedly because you missed an advisory call it becomes a necessary call, in retrospect . They have put out numerous versions of this since its inception . Nev

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Posted (edited)

On the flip side, people routinely make broadcasts turning onto every leg of the circuit, inbound, over head, joining circuit and clear of runway, irrespective of the level of traffic. When there are half a dozen aircraft on CTAF (and throw in a handful of acknowlegdements to the broadcasts) this leads to:

- radio congestion

- reduced situational awareness (with each transmission you redraw the mental picture)

 

I have no issues with additional broadcasts or aircraft to aircraft calls to coordinate separation, but routinely making unnecessary broadcasts based on the principle of “the more you talk the safer you’ll be” is simply wrong. By limiting routine calls to those recommended, you are leaving RT space for critical calls.

Edited by Roundsounds
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1 hour ago, Roundsounds said:

On the flip side, people routinely make broadcasts turning onto every leg of the circuit, inbound, over head, joining circuit and clear of runway, irrespective of the level of traffic. When there are half a dozen aircraft on CTAF (and throw in a handful of acknowlegdements to the broadcasts) this leads to:

- radio congestion

- reduced situational awareness (with each transmission you redraw the mental picture)

 

 

Yes, looking forward the Rylstone fly in  may 18

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Roundsounds

" By limiting routine calls to those recommended, you are leaving RT space for critical calls."

At a training facility those Many calls are getting the student used to RT procedure.

Yes, we can & do it in the car traveling there, but the Instructor needs to HEAR you make the calls.

spacesailor

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The MARINE RT has been ruined by making channel 16 emergency calls Mandatory, which clips out the message your listening to, ( lost weather part you need) even when there's no emergency.

I just switch it OFF , then phone home on expensive Sat-phone to get the missing weather. SO NOT listening to channel 16 at ALL.

spacesailor

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4 minutes ago, spacesailor said:

but the Instructor needs to HEAR you make the calls.

Use the intercom for the non-essential calls to allow your instructor to check, but press the mic button only for the essential calls.

happy days,

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Posted (edited)

Concept aviation would most probably had included one with other goods if you asked

Edited by mnewbery
Amman

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No harm in circuit calls if the channel is not congested. It’s easy to tell whether you are fighting for airtime.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, spacesailor said:

Roundsounds

" By limiting routine calls to those recommended, you are leaving RT space for critical calls."

At a training facility those Many calls are getting the student used to RT procedure.

Yes, we can & do it in the car traveling there, but the Instructor needs to HEAR you make the calls.

spacesailor

The training facilities are teaching their students to routinely make these unnecessary calls. Very poor and unprofessional instructional practice. If the training organisations were teaching correct radio procedures there wouldn’t be the constant chatter on CTAF. 

Edited by Roundsounds
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I initially trained for PPL in CTR. Calls were determined by ATC. Once airborne and in the circuit the only call made by the pilot was down wind. All others were "readback" unless ATC requested a "Report  Base" or whatever. I did my initial RPC conversion at a CTAF aerodrome, Caloundra. There was plenty of radio traffic from Caboolture and Redcliffe on the same frequency. I was never advised by any instructor to limit radio broadcasts. I did a couple of hours on week days & went solo on a Saturday morning. The radio was amazingly busy. This was the first time I'd heard pilots telling their lifes story via VHF. I never got a chance to announce my intentions to land & while on short final heard an exasperated experienced pilot tell them all to shut up as the frequency was far to busy for idle chit chat. From then till shutdown there were only a couple of calls heard so it worked.

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"Please explain" -

 

What is so hard to work out - when there is so much radio activity its hard to get a word in - more than likely unnecessary chatter/calls is the problem - KEEP IT BRIEF - NO CHATTER - NO UNNECESSARY CALLS - YOU ARE NOT ON SOCIAL MEDIA.

 

On the other hand who are these pilot/nutters who are so welcoming of silent radios. Too much of a good thing is certainly a problem,  just as much as too little but its not hard to strike the appropriate balance.

 

MAKE ROUTINE CALLS - who knows I (or someone else) might be inbound. Your call will help me make that all important mental image of traffic to expect inbound/ in circuit/taxiing/departing - I WILL INSTIGATE/RETURN THE COURTESY.

 

STAY SAFE - MAKE APPROPRIATE RADIO CALLS (even if you have not seen or heard anyone else)

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On 3/18/2019 at 2:55 PM, derekliston said:

Never again will I order a ‘free’ document from CASA. In the interest of doing things properly I ordered their free booklet on ‘Radio Procedures in Non-Controlled Airspace’ only to be charged $15 for postage and handling. What I received was a four page, yes say it again 4 page booklet as depicted in the attached photographs. I swear this is the biggest rip-off I have experienced in my entire 70+ years.

514644F5-E10E-4706-B478-E819CD8A58F4.jpeg

106CE526-178A-4385-9708-C80D1BDA1F5C.jpeg

If you had taken the time to come to grips with the CASA online store you would have soon realised that there are many free publications that can be ordered all for a total postage cost of $15.  Either way when you are asked to check out and pay the $15 p & h fee is clearly shown. You could have opted out at that point.

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54 minutes ago, ev17ifly2 said:

If you had taken the time to come to grips with the CASA online store you would have soon realised that there are many free publications that can be ordered all for a total postage cost of $15.  Either way when you are asked to check out and pay the $15 p & h fee is clearly shown. You could have opted out at that point.

Only wanted that booklet. Fail to see why they have to charge so much for something that would fit in a 20cent envelope with a dollar stamp!

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You can see from the posts on this forum that there’s virtually no chance of standard transmissions under the present circumstances.

 

If it can be condensed down to four pages it can be loaded on to the web site so that all pilots can print it off.

 

 

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Maybe I'm wrong but I like to hear what's going on in the circuit !

Everyone tells you to look outside and see what traffic is doing .

Most times I fly I don't always have visual sighting of aircraft in the pattern until I hear a transmission , with intentions and  location.

If the frequency is busy make it short and sweet !

Far better than the alternative.

 

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I don't think anyone is suggesting that you make no calls in the circuit when there is traffic. A 10 mile inbound with ETA and overhead calls should alert any other aircraft in the vicinity that you are joining the circuit & they should advise their position. As soon as you establish there is another aircraft incoming or in the circuit then a call every leg is advised including whether it is T&G or FS. If after making the 2 initial calls & you see nothing and hear nothing there is no point continuing to make calls.

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I think we all agree that the Goldilocks mean is what's needed for radio comms at uncontrolled fields. But ideas as to what 'just right' actually is - for a given context - varies heaps, from place to place, pilot to pilot, instructor to instructor.

 

It'd be too bad if the chatterbox brigade caused the acceptable norm to shift too far towards the opposite extreme; where radio minimalism was the new cool.

 

 

As it happens, in this month's (US) Flying Magazine's, Aftermath column, veteran writer/flyer Peter Garrison recounts a fatal where a C172 and a C340 took off on intersecting runways around the same time. It was an uncontrolled airport (KTPF, Tampa, Florida).  Whilst manoeuvring to avoid the 172 on climb-out, the ATP in the twin lost control, crashed and burned. The other plane was undamaged. According to the subsequent report, it seems that both aircraft had been on the CTAF frequency and had made some pre-takeoff calls but neither, apparently, heard - or, at least, mentally registered - the other. 

 

Garrison concludes his article on the accident thus:

 

 

"The failure of four pilots, two in each airplane, to hear the other airplane's pre-takeoff announcement seems inexplicable, but it illustrates the intermittent nature of human attention. What it suggests, at least to me, is that, at airports and under wind conditions where airplanes could be using several different runways, or could be taking off in opposite directions or from different intersections on the same runway, a single transmission is not enough.

 

I admit that one feels a little silly announcing first 'Holding at Runway 5 for takeoff,' then 'Taking Runway 5 for takeoff,' and finally 'Rolling on Runway 5' - but it's better than a collision.

 

The same applies to calls when approaching an uncontrolled airport, which should begin several miles out and include position, altitude and, especially for small and inconspicuous airplanes, color; reports of position alone should be repeated at intervals in the pattern."

 

Closer to home, at Taree (NSW) there was an incident in 2012 with some similarities; thankfully, minus unhappy ending.  An RV10 with four aboard took off right over the top of a Rex Saab that was lined up, ready to depart reciprocally. Again, the official report concluded that whilst both apparently had made calls, somehow, pilot A failed to get through to pilot B and vice versa.

 

That incident was written up in this ATSB publication (page 15)

 

https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/3615388/ab2012065.pdf#page=20

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Here is the booklet, make of it what you will, but this apparently is CASA’s take on it! Seem to have managed to get the first and second photographs in reverse order!

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5155DB6D-E3AD-4962-A9B4-483EBC7A5A59.jpeg

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You can get all this good info and more for free by attending one of casa's exelent  Avsafety seminars. In our area they are presented by someone who is a current GA pilot and opperator. If casa employed a few less lawyer's and more people like her the world would be a better place.  

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