Guest drizzt1978 Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 I know there is no stupid questions BUT.. So if i am doing a step turn in the J170, How come it doesn't roll over? And if i am in a step turn (like wing tips pointing to the ground) and i got hit by a big gust of wind could i get inverted. Which leads me to my main point... I have a strange phobia of ending up inverted in flight.. Unintentionally... So what would I do if I found myself in that situation, Most instructors have dismissed it with...don't worry it wont happen... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 Steep turn consequences. In a steep turn you are holding height with the elevators and controlling bank with ailerons. You should also have increased the power. The quickest way to exit a steep turn is roll the wings level and pole forward slightly, (and reduce the power.) Have you been taught recovery from a spiral dive? This is a possible situation that you will encounter IF you muck-up a steep turn.. The recovery action there is to close the throttle and roll the wings level. You close the throttle because in a spiral the dangerous aspect of it is the build up of airspeed, which can overload the structure. so you get rid of the power first, level the wings, then recover from the dive gently, reapplying power when the nose is more or less in the S&L attitude. Going upside down is not particularly likely UNLESS you put it into a dynamic stall by pulling the stick well back where it may flick inverted. It is a natural response to pull the stick back if the aircraft is heading towards the ground, but in a spiral dive situation it is the WORST thing that you could do. Since you are concerned with this try and get it sorted out . Visit the RAAus web-site , any good training manual and discuss it with your instructor. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest drizzt1978 Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 Yep no problem with step turns, getting into one, out of one... And spiral dives are fine, Stalls are all good, passed with reasonable colours. Its just a fear of being inverted..... Notice how your response didn't include how to recover if you did end up inverted... So im not concerned with step turns or stalls, It upside down that scares me, And they wont flick a RAaus plane upside down for me!!! With good reason, It would be one reason i would consider swaping to GA, so i can do some aerobatics.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazda Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 Firstly, it doesn't roll over because you stop the roll input. You provide aileron input to 30 degrees, 45, 60 whatever, but you don't keep adding more aileron. Feel it next time you do one. You are the one who stops the roll. Secondly, most aircraft are designed to be stable so they try to right themselves. There are aerodynamic design features to encourage this. Purpose built aerobatic aircraft are designed to be less stable. Anyway, it takes more effort to get the things on their back than you think. However ... there HAVE been cases where aircraft have ended up inverted (or more commonly, not inverted as such, but with angles of bank over 90 degrees). It could be from wake turbulence for instance. So, what do you do if it does happen? "Roll to the nearest horizon and ease out of the dive." Never forget that. ROLL. Whatever you do, don't pull, which as Nev says is the first thing most people do, unless they've been trained not to do so. If you pull when you are inverted, the aircraft does exactly what you've asked, and heads straight for the ground. Roll to the nearest horizon. It might be that you roll back the way you came, or it could be that you continue rolling right around, but go for the nearest one. Do NOT pull while you roll. There's a thing called "Rolling G", resulting in a much higher stress on the aircraft than if you pull the same amount of G when level. Exceed the rolling G limit of the aircraft and you could have a structural failure. Once you are the right way up and your wings are level, you can ease out of the dive by pulling out - gently. If you are in a panic and pull back too hard, you might end up stalling and losing more height. Stalling is not necessarily related to speed. Now, power. It's likely that while all this is going on, the aircraft nose will drop in the roll and you'll be pointing downhill. Whenever the nose is pointing towards the ground, pull off the power. That doesn't matter if you are upside down or right way up. Nose down, power off. So, you have rolled to the horizon, wings are level, your power is off, and you are easing out of the dive. Apply your power once the nose climbs back up above the horizon - i.e. you are climbing again, nose pointing up. If you have a chance, go up with a GA aerobatic instructor and get them to show you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest drizzt1978 Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 Wow, now there is an answer i had to read twice, Thanks so much, so by pulling (which you shouldnt do) you are in essence pointing the nose to the ground. Ok thank you if i ever find myself there i have some information!! Yeah I would love to go up and do some mild aerobatics as its the only thing you cant do in Ra that would be an invaluable learning tool... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest brentc Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 Come up with me M and we'll discuss further, with some practical examples. I've never unintentionally been upside down in the Jab so you should be safe :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 I went up with Martyn Smith at Aldinga in their super decathlon and spent an hour doing stalls in steep turns, spin recovery etc and felt it was really worthwhile and will probably go back and do it again every couple of years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 Fear of being inverted. That is a natural fear too. Exposure to it will aid you. Do it in the right plane with the right pilot. Don't get some clown who wants to exploit your fear. The thing is that a 3-axis aircraft will respond to the controls in the same sense regardless of your aircrafts orientation, AS YOU PERCEIVE IT as long as you have sufficient forward speed to make the controls effective.. Inverted flight per se. comes quite naturally controlwise except you are hanging full weight in the straps, (HAVE THEM TIGHT) and in most aircraft the engine is not available for use inverted, so you are commited to a glide. I consistently recommend that emergency manoeuver training be undertaken with a competent Instructor in something like a Decathlon (or better)Constructed for aerobatics. AN open cockpit , if you go that way, can be a bit nerve-wracking. for having nothing between you and the ground adds the extra bit of fear in some for a while. It might only be psychological but it's there. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest drizzt1978 Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 Thanks guys (Except you Brent) that offer scares me (just kidding mate)....then again I was trained by someone who liked to push the envelope ;-) So I suppose i start looking for a GA pilot/Instructor who will take me up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simonflyer Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 Drizz Another option to get a feel for how to recover from unusual attitudes and angles in a safe environment is to have a shot on a flight simulator either on your own computer if you have one, or by finding one at a flight school although the second option aint cheap.. Then just go "flying" and knock yourself out so to speak..The good simulators like Xplane and microsoft flight sim are realistic enough to see what happens without putting you in danger.You'll soon see what works and what doesnt...Ive found them to be of great use. The main thing as others have noted is to get the wings level first, then get to sorting out speed and altitude etc.. I would make a note that im sure youre well aware of, but the best person to teach you about recovery procedure's is your instructor Enjoy.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 So I suppose i start looking for a GA pilot/Instructor who will take me up!! Just don't get a fright at the cost! When I looked into it, I nearly had a heart attack!!:confused: Flight sims good fun.......... practice rolls in a mooney! or learjet if your feeling the need!:big_grin: A loop takes a bit of practice to not overspeed in them things! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 Like you said, no such thing as a dumb question, only dumb answers, as a couple in this thread clearly shows... Go and get the monkey off your back...(legally, and safely) cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazda Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 Yes Drizz, if you pull when right way up, it makes the nose point up towards you. If you pull when inverted, it still makes the nose point towards you, but now it is pointing down towards the ground. So to maintain height when inverted, you may need forward pressure. Nev is right, unless the aircraft has an inverted fuel and oil system, the engine will stop inverted, but it does take a little while to happen - there are plenty of basic aerobatic trainers without inverted systems. It shouldn't stop on a roll unless you hang inverted for a while. Unfortunately a sim won't give you the physical sensations or the fear factor, so do it for real if you can, in an aerobatic aircraft, with a good aerobatic instructor. It may be expensive, but it really is worth every cent! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Walter Buschor Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 If you ever get inverted...... just have elevator in neutral and roll out using aileron - with throttle closed as the plane will very quickly reach - or worse - exceed VNE . Pulling through the second part of the loop - ie: down and out could stress or worse - overstress the airframe due to increase in speed. ( I used to do airos in a Decathlon many years ago : it was MMM at Archerfield ) I cannot would you find yourself in that situation in the first place. the grey Nomad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazda Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 I can't see it getting to VNE that quickly in a roll! Yes, you'd be nose down, but realistically, even with an increase in airspeed, I can't think of much of an alternative. It's rolling to level and recovering, or nothing. OK, aeros trained people could use elevator and rudder inputs (the person below did), but an untrained person wouldn't. As you've said, the back half of a loop starts with low airspeed. Pulling through from inverted at a higher speed means a real danger of exceeding VNE, exceeding the G limit of the aircraft, hitting the ground, or all three! It takes a lot of height and speed builds up very quickly! Unfortunately being tipped inverted does happen, see here: Turbulence & hazards From that link: The following is extracted from a report by an RA-Aus pilot who apparently encountered a springtime cluster storm on the southern edges of the Great Dividing Range, north-east of Melbourne, only 13 nm from home, but — fortunately — in a very tough ultralight. "I had encountered a few small rain showers that lasted 15-20 seconds when all of a sudden I noticed the altimeter going nuts ... the next thing to happen was the Cobra Arrow was lifted and it felt like it was just thrown over end first, I pulled the power and then the fun really started; I was now heading to the ground 2000 feet below at over 160 knots ... inverted and going down quick. I can recall just yelling. I pushed down elevator and commenced a bunt — or the upward half of an inverted loop — then a half roll. That's got it up the right way then I was thrown to the right at the same time dislocating my left shoulder, inverted again and rolled back to upright then to the left and bang in went the shoulder; all the time just flying and waiting for something to give! I managed with good luck and a lot of skill to get out of this situation ... I have done a fair amount of aerobatics and I think it more than saved my life this day. I started to ease the power and flew clear of the main front, leaving the mountains two minutes later in blue skies and sunshine and almost nil wind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest drizzt1978 Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 This whole thing has got me thinking. What are the prerequisites for going to a GA flying school, and getting an instructor to show you "Unusual Attitude Recovery". It might be something that RA-AUS should look in to for students who want to know how to get out of unusual Attitudes. Im sure there would be a real grey area at the moment, ie I can show you how to do it, but you cant do it your self.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slartibartfast Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 It also happened to a friend in a Tecnam Echo a couple of months ago. He was over lake Jindabyne and had just finished saying to his passenger how lucky he was to fly on a perfectly calm and sunny day when, WHAM!! He was inverted. Scared the hell out of him. He was a low hour pilot and had no training to prepare him for invertedness or upsidedownosity. It appears that some weather had moved in on the other side of the Snowys and just rolled over at that moment in the form of a large rotor. Lake Jindabyne is in the lee of the largest mountains we have in this country. You never know. It pays to get some extra training. I did aeros in gliders way back, but did a refresher in a Pitts last year. Definitely worth doing some training if you haven't had any - and in RA we aren't allowed to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazda Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 In the new aerobatics section of the forums there's a thread going about EMT courses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 Mazda.. You started your Instructor rating yet??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 Filling in Some Spaces. not necessarily in the right order. You cannot just go along to a GA school and do this. Most of the instructors would not have done it ,and it is most likely that they would NOT have a suitable aeroplane, in their fleet. You have to go to a "Speciallist" organisation. The last aerobatic aircraft that were used for spin training in large numbers tended to become obselete in the mid-60's. The powers that be, world-wide decided in their wisdom that addressing aircraft handling up to INCIPIENT spin was OK. This had to be the case as most of the new aircraft were not stressed for aero's. Large Jets have from occasionally suffered "upsets" mainly due to flyng too high, close to "coffin corner" where you are in between and too close to low speed stall at the lower end, and compressibility where local sections of the wing become supersonic and altering the lift, at the higher end. Some crews were able to recover from this situation,(Usually a spin) but with tests in the simulators enabling many pilots to be assessed it was found that many of them had NO training in this area and would perform poorly. (surprise, surprise). Consequently SOME of them are trained and encouraged to keep current in EMT While this situation is not encountered with our aircraft, Slarti has mentioned a few good examples where extreme attitudes can occurr that are appropriate to us. This training could easily save your, and your passengers life, so whatever the cost it would be good value. Nev.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest brentc Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 I've got well over 1,000 hours and have never been flipped up-side down in all sorts of adverse weather conditions, but given that you say this happened in a Tecnam, well you'd expect that. Oops, wrong thread again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunlopdangler Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 Interesting thread..I remember when I was learning to fly, I did recoveries from unusual attitudes in a fairly new Piper Tomahawk, (in those days also the Tomahawk was approved for some aerobatic manouvers) which found me upside down hanging on the straps..despite being told otherwise, the first instinct is to pull through and you need to ignore this reaction as it has killed countless people over the years (mostly from entering IMC or pushing past last light and ending up disorientated) Pull- throughs overstress the airframe and could also render the pilot incapacitated with excessive G's. For those who think they can get away with doing aero's (like who is to know if nobody sees you) DON'T...unless you are suitably trained in an aircraft designed for the purpose. If you end up in a situation like portrayed by drizz, Mazda has offerred the best advice here..well done mate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazda Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 Thanks Dunlop! Merv, not yet, I'm still a lowly CPL, I haven't found a school to do the instructor rating yet. I can't wait to do it though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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