Gaap closure in april 2010 ?

[runt]

:black_eye: hello all

 

I just read about the ALL airfeilds that use GAAP procedures will become class D airspace and as such CAN'T BE USED BY RAUS aircraft , unless you hold a ppl that is . I guess that also means no ra us training as well , looks like it's going to restrick our movment a bit too as well have to go around it .thumb_down

 

poor old raus cops it in the neck again..please if i've got this wrong let me know.

 

 

[Ultralights]

Its Not that bad, we fly RAAUs aircraft out of bankstown, and when it goes to class D nothing will change, when flying with an Instructor that is PPL licenced or higher, you are flying under his authority to fly in class D, as with our school you fly the complete syllubus to licence test level, at which point, we take the aircraft to a CTAF, and the student can then fly the requires Solo hrs over the period of 2 days, or as required. or the other option is to fly from Bankstown to a nearby airport thats a CTAF and do the solo work there as its required throughout the training.

 

Most of our students have then gone on to complete their PPL, as all that is required is 3 hrs Instrument, the PPL theory exam,advanced stalls, and about 3 or so more hrs to prove to the CFI you can handle a larger heavier aircraft, usually a NAV with the use of radio navaids, thats really about it, nce you have your PPL/GFPT, you can fly RAAus aircraft solo from within class D.

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

Well, you already can't use GAAP unless you have a PPL! The only exception are those FTFs with a CASA exemption.

 

At the moment there is nothing to indicate those exemptions are not going to remain in place as they refer to "controlled airspace" in general and not to the specific GAAP.

 

 

[Guest Graham Lea]

My understanding is that Camden NSW will go to CTA in April.Then there will be no airport in the Sydney basin for RAAus. :-(

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

Isn't Camden a GAAP? ERSA says it is, but only Sunday and Monday. (SAT-SUN 2300-0700) And bank holidays. Surely they mean Saturday and Sunday!? (FRI-SAT 2300-0700)

 

So unless they have a special rule, you are already not welcome during tower hours without a PPL.

 

I doubt after April they will go to tower hours every day, so even if it is class D, it will likely still be CTAF outside tower hours.

 

 

[IanR]

As per other posts, Camden will be tower every day during daylight hours

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

That's a bummer. Is this a knee-jerk reaction or do people who fly there feel it really is dangerously busy and needs to be more controlled?

 

 

[Mazda]

It's been in the pipeline for 8 years, it's in the national airspace system. GAAP was planned to go to Class D, because that's what it is and GAAP is a unique airspace not known in any other country. Plus they all have different procedures anyway. At Camden for instance you are not permitted to descend unless issued with a sequencing instruction. At Bankstown you must descend automatically. At Archerfield you must descend automatically unless told not to. Each one has its own rules about departing on a certain leg, at a certain height or on a certain track.

 

GAAP was based on the airspace at Van Nuys, which happens to be Class D, but because Australia uses a type of Class D that is more like Class C, they weren't sure what to do with it and it was called something else. But Class D is what it is.

 

For VFR there shouldn't be much difference. ICAO class D has implied clearance like GAAP, let's hope Class D here is simplified. I hope they get rid of approach points, because that was one of the problems of GAAP. In D you should be able to call to say you are however many miles to the west for instance. Let's see what happens!

 

 

[IanR]

That's a bummer. Is this a knee-jerk reaction or do people who fly there feel it really is dangerously busy and needs to be more controlled?

From what I understand it has certainly become rather a lot busier since circuit restrictions were put on at BK ! Camden has them as well but only during current tower hours. Closure of Hoxton has contributed to the increase.

 

 

[flying dog]

I'm confused. :confused:

 

Reading what is here: GAAP is unique to Oz. With GAAP, there are problems because of local "proceedures" which are not standard to all places and this causes confusion.

 

Making it "Class D" makes it conform to international standards and so brings it into line and therefore reduces the confusion. :clown:

 

Yeah, so an airport has a situation where you have to do certain different to the "usual" to get into that airspace. So really it isn't Class D.

 

Isn't changing the designation from GAAP to Class D only iceing rather than actually doing anything?

 

The unique requirements of certain places will still exist if they change it from GAAP to Class D either way. So from that perspective it is accademic WHAT the airspace is called.

 

AND:

 

If they make it "Class D" and these places retain their "Special proceedures" that airspace isn't really doesn't conform to international "standards" then. :Flush:

 

It seems way too confusing to me. Maybe someone could please explain where I am getting confused and educate me.

 

(But I am kind of glad/happy I am only RAA. Though I did say it would be lovely to be able to fly in Controlled airspace, as I would love to do a landing at Kingsford Smith.)

 

 

Anyway, I'd better stop there.

 

Bye for now.

 

 

 

[Mazda]

Dog, GAAP is based on Class D but there are inconsistencies, and yes you are right, the idea is to make it standard.

 

I don't know exactly what is proposed but if it goes to standard D the approach points should go. There is a difference in relation to IFR separation and I think that is where the objections may lie. In the US the tower controller may be given authority to allow visual separation for IFR, I'm not sure if that will happen here.

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

Aren't they planning to do FAA Class D rather than ICAO? In that case, it is alligned with one particular international entity!

 

The whole "unique to Australia" thing is bogus anyway as I don't recall there being much international traffic going into GAAPs. And regardless of what the airspace is called, every country and airport has their own unique procedures/customs so you need to familiarise yourself with those in any case if you are a visiting pilot.

 

 

[Guest Cloudsuck]

Imagine how busy the tower frequency is going to be once the GAAPs become class 'D' and we have to do those BS departure calls. And imagine if they drop the entry and departure altitudes? aircraft going out at 1500' and aircraft coming in at 1500'. Sounds nasty...

 

 

[dunlopdangler]

When I started flying, we had the environment known as Secondary control zones which were much like the class D of now. GAAP was introduced to streamline procedures at these aerodromes which were predomately very busy training centres (not like now). As an example, Archerfield had 3 by 3 runway systems (runways left, centre and right) everyone was in the same circuit and pilots called base with intention (whether it was for a touch and go or full stop) and the controller would then give clearance to land on the nominated runway. GAAP and the change to contra-rotating runways eased the congestion and simplified these procedures, but became a uniquely australian thing which had not been adopted elsewhere. The introduction of the ABC airspace as well as compliance to ICAO modelling put GAAP on borrowed time.

 

 

[Guest David C]

Its Not that bad, we fly RAAUs aircraft out of bankstown, and when it goes to class D nothing will change, when flying with an Instructor that is PPL licenced or higher, you are flying under his authority to fly in class D, as with our school you fly the complete syllubus to licence test level, at which point, we take the aircraft to a CTAF, and the student can then fly the requires Solo hrs over the period of 2 days, or as required. or the other option is to fly from Bankstown to a nearby airport thats a CTAF and do the solo work there as its required throughout the training. .

So if Camden becomes a towered airport every day from April 2010 as confirmed in previous posts , where are you going to do the solo flying part of the certificate syllabus ?? ..... just curious ..

 

Dave C

 

 

[flying dog]

Aren't they planning to do FAA Class D rather than ICAO? In that case, it is alligned with one particular international entity!The whole "unique to Australia" thing is bogus anyway as I don't recall there being much international traffic going into GAAPs. And regardless of what the airspace is called, every country and airport has their own unique procedures/customs so you need to familiarise yourself with those in any case if you are a visiting pilot.

Err, I think it would be so if some pilot from O/S comes here and wants to fly, there is some "standard" which is only to make people THINK they are safe. ;)

 

 

[Ultralights]

So if Camden becomes a towered airport every day from April 2010 as confirmed in previous posts , where are you going to do the solo flying part of the certificate syllabus ?? ..... just curious ..Dave C

most solo stuff is done at YWOL. we go to Camden on weekends before tower opens, so we can get an hour or 3 in between fist light and 9 am. the schools boss flies from YWOL, with a lot of skydivers and charter ops , so its a familiar field to us,

 

also, dont forget Bankstown turns into an absolute disaster every weekend now due to lack of controllers and this ludicrous 6 aircraft rule, where will they get another 2 full time controllers to man Camdens tower full time when they are already so massively understaffed that they can no longer provide air traffic coverage in large parts of Oz.?

 

 

[skybum]

Do not be surprised when GAAP go class D that they still maintain the Inbound Reporting Points. It will also be interesting to see how ops progress at places like Coffs that will also revert to the exact same procedures as the GAAP aerodromes. I am very interested to see what is changed for procedures....food for thought, those towered aerodromes that RAA has an exemption to operate in...do not stuff up....you guys may well be the guinea pigs to allow the rest of RAA access to class D in the future.