PA22

[TAA Student Pilot]

PA22, do you have one?

 

 

[Guest Glenn]

HUH???

 

 

[Guest colt_pa22]

I guess that question is directed at me. No, I don't have a PA-22, always liked them though especially the colt. Do you have one or fly one?

 

 

We have its younger brother in the family, the PA-38, FUO. Has anyone here ever spun a Tomahawk?

 

 

colt

 

 

[Guest Glenn]

I guess that question is directed at me.

No worries 8) Nice planes btw

 

 

[Guest colt_pa22]

Thanks Glenn. Great forum, thanks for the message on the TVSA forum.

 

 

[TAA Student Pilot]

Related

 

Got it's bigger brother, a PA22-20. All the old Shortwings are great machines.

 

 

[Guest colt_pa22]

Where in Oz are you based?

 

Colt

 

 

[TAA Student Pilot]

Armidale, NSW. Where you?

 

 

[Guest colt_pa22]

Romsey ? Victoria. 45 minutes N N/W of Melbourne airport.

 

 

[Guest Bmw]

Yeah Colt - I've kinda spun in one....!

 

Bmw

 

 

[Guest colt_pa22]

Welcome beamer, good to hear from you again. I hope your spinning experience was worthwhile? We must go flying again sometime out of Maryborough, maybe after exams?

 

colt

 

 

[Guest acroace60]

Nope, not spun a Tomahawk and will never do so! The FAA were totally incompetent in their response to the NTSB direction to investigate the compliance to FAR 23 spin requirements. Their retest only looked at stall characteristics. They stopped at giving Piper a large fine - criminal to continue the spin approval.

 

Plenty of aeroplanes with satisfactory spin charateristics so there's no reason to tempt fate with things like that. By the way, what's that behind VH-PIN?

 

 

[TAA Student Pilot]

Wassit?

 

Looks like a Decathlon. That's the Aircraft not the Olympic event. :D

 

 

[Guest colt_pa22]

I have not seen or read the report, but here is a link to an NTSB Safety Recommendation, which is FULL of information

 

http://www.ntsb.gov/Recs/letters/1997/A97_41_45.pdf

 

What was the result of the flight test post July 10, 1997, or is that yet to occur?

 

Therefore, the National Transportation Safety Board recommends the following to theFederal Aviation Administration:

 

Expand the upcoming PA-38-1 12 certification flight test program to include thefollowing:

(1) a niinimum of two test airplanes. Document any changes necessary to bring

 

these test airplanes into conformance with the type certificate. (A-97-41)

 

(2) section 23.201 wings-level stall tests, to ensure that among other requirements,

 

the stall is defined by a downward pitching motion of the airplane. (A-97-42)

 

(3) section 23.207 stall warning tests, to ensure the stall waming horn activates at

 

least 5 knots before stall. (A-97-43)

 

(4) section 23 221 spin tests, to ensure that it is impossible to obtain unrecoverable

 

spins with any use of the flight controls or throttle and to verify that the results

 

obtained in the original certification program (spin recovery is always possible in

 

one additional turn after input of anti-spin controls) can be duplicated on production

 

airplanes. (A-97-44)

 

 

Pending completion of the flight test program specified in the aboverecommendation, immediately require that the slow flight and stall training in, the

PA-38-1 12 be conducted at or above the minimum altitude currently specified in the

 

PA-38-1 12 pilots operating handbook for spin training; and inform pilots of

 

alternative methods of recovery from an inadvertenf possibly flat spin.

 

(Urgent) (A-97-45)

Believe it or not, T-tails tend to make recovery EASIER from a flat spin!( Stroud et al. 2005)

 

colt

 

 

[Guest acroace60]

Ah! A Decathlon - a real nice aeroplane. No problems with spinning once of those.

 

 

[Guest colt_pa22]

Hi acroace60,

 

Plenty of aeroplanes with satisfactory spin charateristics so there's no reason to tempt fate

Is this in regard to the greater chance the Tomahawk has of getting into a flat spin compared to say a Beech 77 Skipper or Cessna 150/2?

 

How is this for being dangerous, clip out of Iron eagle of a PA-38 roll, filmed in Israel and only just positive G. See link below.

 

http://f4.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/IC33QgRV6- ... /Clip1.mpg

 

colt

 

 

[Guest acroace60]

The following is quoted verbatim from the 7-page letter written by Jim Hall, Chairman of NTSB, to Barry L. Valentine, Acting Administrator of the FAA, dated July 10, 1997

 

In addition, the former Piper chief test pilot interviewed by Safety Board staff in January 1997 described a PA-38-112 "flat spin" that he experienced in 1983. He stated that during an intentional spin, after approximately 2 turns, the nose started to rise to a more level pitch attitude, the rotation rate increased, and the spin "went flat." He said that even with full recovery rudder and elevator control, the "flat" spin continued for at least two more turns; then the nose slowly dropped and rotation ceased. He described the experience as "frightening. I didn't think that it was going to recover."In April 1991, an FAA inspector from the Rochester, New York, flight standards district office was administering a check ride to a flight instructor from a 14 CFR Part 141 flight school in a PA-38-112. The FAA inspector had about 13,500 flight hours and had served as an aerobatics instructor; he had reportedly performed numerous spins in at least 15 different airplanes, including many spins in the PA-38-112. As part of the required check ride maneuvers, the inspector asked the candidate to perform a 1-turn spin to the right at an altitude of 5,000 feet. The candidate placed the airplane into a spin; however, the nose began to rise and a flat spin developed.

 

According to the inspector, the candidate immediately attempted to recover from the spin using the recovery procedures described in the airplane flight manual, but the airplane continued to spin. The inspector then took control of the airplane and described moving the flight controls to maximum deflection with no response. In desperation, the inspector released his seat belt, pulled himself fully forward against the instrument panel, and instructed the other pilot to do the same (a maneuver which the inspector credits with saving their lives). After several more revolutions, the nose of the airplane dropped and a recovery was effected. Control of the airplane was regained less than 1,000 feet above the ground. After landing, the airplane was immediately inspected. No discrepancies were found and it was determined that the flight control rigging, weight and balance, and configuration of the airplane all complied with the airplane certification. .....

 

Therefore the National Transportation Safety Board recommends the following to the Federal Aviation Administration:

 

Expand the upcoming PA-38-112 certification flight test program to include the following:

 

(1) a minimum of two test airplanes. Document any changes necessary to bring these test airplanes into conformance with the type certificate. (A-97-41) ....

 

(4) section 23.221 spin tests, to ensure that it is impossible to obtain unrecoverable spins with any use of the flight controls or throttle and to verify that the results obtained in the original certification program (spin recovery is always possible in one additional turn after input of anti-spin controls) can be duplicated on production airplanes. (A-97-44) .."

From another source:

Status: A-97-44. ). In March of 1998 the FAA responded as follows, "The FAA determined that there was adequate certification data available to demonstrate compliance of the Piper PA-38-112 with the spin test requirements and to show conformity of the aircraft.

spin recovery is always possible in one additional turn ??

 

The FAA has lower standards than myself; I choose not to fly them.

 

 

[Guest colt_pa22]

It makes for quite interesting reading.

 

I firmly believe that ALL aircraft have a flat=spin mode, but some of them have simply never gotten the loading/pitch/power formula "just right"...yet

(Stroud et al. 2005)My old flight instructor would never set foot in a Cessna 150/152 after one lesson where it took him 5000? to recover from an intentional spin. So you have fans either way. I agree, a more sensible choice is an aerobatic aircraft like the citabria, decathlon or Zlin. Why fly and aircraft so close to its envelope, you aren?t leaving much room for error.

 

Some reasons why the Tomahawk may be more susceptible flat spins may be:

 

Tomahawks have a big disadvantage when it comes to spinning: their baggage area. The back of a Tomahawk's cabin literally SCREAMS to be over-loaded, and virtually ALL of that weight is behind the C.G. I'd hazard a guess that those two Tomahawk pilots were at or abovegross wt. anyway (easy to do, for all of us), and I'd further guess that they were either BIG men, or they had lots of stuff in back to hold the tail down. When you don't have enough pitch power (forward wheel) to lower the nose, you're screwed! In most aircraft, lack of elevator authority...or at least enough to shove the nose down...aft C.G....plus yaw from any of at least 3 sources...and the addition of lots of power is usually enough to spin that sucker like a frisbee!

Fortunately, aerobatic aircraft have abnormally powerful pitch and yaw, as well as excess

 

power. They're usually able to do no more than reduce power, and the nose drops out nicely into a normal or inverted spin, both of which are easy to recover from.

 

Tomahawks, as we've mentioned time and time again, are no worse than most other aircraft...and far better than most. Don't sweat flying one at all...and watch your loading, especially if you'll be training in unusual attitudes, such as spins

 

spin recovery is always possible in one additional turn ??

Up to 1 and a ? for the Tomahawk. I?m not very knowledgeable in this area. But I?m sure our aircraft being an ex trainer has performed hundreds.

Not that I will be spinning after before any dual but some precautions to come out of this:

 

Have plenty of height - the more the better,

 

Do not overload ? try to be as light as possible,

 

Have minimal baggage if any in the hold,

 

Have your seats as far forward as possible ? as close to the Cg or in front as possible to give you more elevator authority,

 

Follow the procedure to the t and DO NOT experiment with ailerons or other aircraft procedures.

 

Will I be spinning FUO, probably not, should spinning be part of the syllabus yes and no? We need to remember that 80-85% of spin accidents happen while between base and final. Research shows that mistreatment of the aircraft in the training area is the main course of remaining 15-20% of stall/spin accidents.

 

acroace60, have you ever flown a PA-38 or has this investigation scared you from setting foot in one?

 

colt

 

 

[sixtiesrelic]

PA22, do you have one?

 

It's an old post... but Yes I did own a share in this one for four years...

 

 

Difference of opinion with members caused us to sell it. Majority wanted to make it a tail dragger.

 

One of the best light planes I've flown for it's fun factor.

 

The only fixed pitch one I've seen with a manifold pressure gauge fitted.

 

I flew three fixed pitch ones and one constant speed.

 

Constant speed 150 HP climbed better but cruised at the same speed as the 160 HP fixed pitch ones.

 

The third fuel tank was great if we were getting concerned about fuel. You could drain the left tank to empty and transfer the seven gal from the aux to Left in 25 minutes. Got a pretty good idea of consumption and range that way.

 

I did it for real, en route from Urandangie to Alice Springs when I found the head wind worse than expected and I'd given a very conservative endurance on the plan and needed to update it. Landed on a strip and dipped the tanks and was able to give the accurate revised estimate.

 

This photo was taken on Lake Frome. It's a scan of a photo album page.