Ben

Just wanted to share some fantastic news. 

Bankstown Airport really smashed it in May, recording 23,000 movements! Making it the 2nd most busy airport in the country for that month!

Just did a comparison. Looks like it is roughly an extra 7-8km 

If cruising at 200km/hr it will take an additional 2.5min to get to Camden airspace. 5min return trip. That's still doable right? 

Hey OME, let's assume you are correct in your airspace predictions, any guesses how much it would add to the transit time from Bankstown for upper air work? Also how feasible is it to train directly east of WSI? 

Many thanks for everyone who has contributed their insights! I really appreciate the diverse knowledge and experience you all share!

What I gather from everyones responses:

- Many Aviation related business have shut/moved out or continue to struggle

- Movement numbers are strong and steady 

- Majority of movements appear to be flight training (CPL) followed by rotary rather than recreational

This does raise another question - Does anyone have any first hand knowledge of how these flight schools are coping? Data suggests they are doing fine as the demand is there based on the movement numbers. Their hourly rates also appear to reflect that as per Carbon Canary's and others pricing observation. 

Sadly that isn't great news for people like myself with the cost of training being so high and appears to only up. However, university degrees are also expensive so it's an investment that has to be made one way or another. 

Look at these Big businesses, even bragging about their milestones. 

https://www.watoday.com.au/business/companies/samsung-signs-lease-at-super-fund-s-big-western-sydney-industrial-estate-20230508-p5d6ly.html

What I really don't understand is, how can non-aviation big businesses have access to long term leases, whereas aviation businesses cannot, even when it is based on an airport?! 

What will the big businesses do when they eventually drive out the flight schools and lose that revenue stream? They'll be left with 3 dead runways.  

10 hours ago, Carbon Canary said:

With training at Bankstown listed at $443/hr + $25 landing fee for ab initio training in a 47 year old warrior, one would think the demographic that can afford this is severely limited…….or the Bank of M&D has deep pockets.

 

https://global-uploads.webflow.com/636a17b81f72224488d65b95/636d7aa692fb7b9a19721eb3_SFC Aircraft Rates-September 2022.pdf
 

That said, this particular school has invested heavily in a new fleet of Archer TX aircraft (with a hire rate of $520/hr) so I admire their optimism.  
 

As OME indicated, once the new WSI / NBW airport airspace comes into play, Bankstown aircraft will most likely be forced further south for training.  This will only add to the expense of training.

 

Interestingly, Warnervale flying school on the Central Coast is booming (using 45 year old C150s) at $355/hr incl landing fee.

 

I personally feel very fortunate that when I began my flying training it cost $35/hour and no landing fee - but that was still bloody expensive !!

wow $35/hour including hire, fuel and trainer? That's insane! Though I could say the same about house prices 🥲

10 hours ago, old man emu said:

An "aircraft movement" for statistical purposes is either a takeoff or a landing. They don't reflect the number of individual aircraft using an aerodrome. So, a student pilot doing circuits and bumps will create six takeoffs and landings in an hour. That's 12 movements by one plane in one hour. So to say that movements have not changed is not a reflection on the vibrancy of an aerodrome,

 

This is what Bankstown looked like about 10 years ago: 

 

The red areas on this view are the non-aviation areas of the airport today: 

 

Since the Government leased to aerodrome to Big Business, the North/South runway has been eliminated. The general parking area to the top right is now non-aviation industrial units, and the area to teh west of it is currently being prepared for the building of more of the same. Landing fees and parking fees make the place unattractive to private owners.

 

Because of the hike in rents to "commercial equivalent" aviation support businesses such as Hawker-Pacific spares and engine shop as well as Aviall spares have left. One of the two propeller repair businesses has closed. As soons as a business's lease needs to be renewed, the rents demanded skyrocket. If business  which built its premises before the Commonwealth handed over the head lease of the aerodrome to Big Business closes down, the owner of building can't sell it to a new business. The building becomes the property of the head leaseholder with no compensation. There goes the superannuation of the self-employed blokes who built those facilities out of their own pockets.

 

Nancy Bird Walton Airport will impact on the associated training area associated with Bankstown. Apart from the NBW Airport control zone limits, massive residential development to the south of it will severely limit airspace for training due to safety reasons, as well as the cries from the newly-arrived NIMBYs in those 21st Century slums.

 

Don't forget that Big Business also has the lease of Camden and the land where Hoxton Park used to be (now a big warehousing site)

 

Public Transport: Fly into Bankstown to attend to business or pleasure in Sydney, and you'll need a taxi or Uber to go any further as there is no public transport. It is 15 minutes by road to the nearest railway station.

 

I'm afraid, Ben, that your optimism is unfounded. Bankstown Airport will become a site fit only for commercial aviation. Maybe Big Business will see that Camden should be developed to promote General Aviation in the training and private sectors, but being located on a floodplain that got swamped last year, it is not likely. It is ironic that the leaders of Big Business, who rely so much on air travel can't see the need to provide for the training needs of the next generation of commercially licensed pilots.

Wow I don't know what to say. You've really opened my eyes OME. I did not know a touch and go counted as 2 movements... Looks like you've brought me back down to earth. Regarding Camden being on a flood plain, I thought Bankstown is also located on one, though I don't think it got flooded even with the crazy rain from last year. Henry Lawson Drive/Tower road intersection had sections submerged. 

Also genuine noob question - When WSI becomes operational, you mentioned the training could potentially be further south, what proportion of training will that comprise of versus say touch and go where the flying occurs around the airport? How much of an impact will that have on a flight schools overall operation? 

12 hours ago, johnm said:

good work on your first post Ben

 

I don't even know what bankstown looks like ! - but I think commercial pressure for capital and rent seems to exceed what flight schools can generate in income ...................... they move to where things are a bit cheaper ?

Thanks! Though that may be true, but we must not allow that since flight schools can only operate at airports whereas developers can developer wherever they want.

Hello all! 

Long time lurker, first time poster so please be kind 😃 

Disclaimer: I am a uni student and have aspirations to become a pilot, so I'm still a noob. 

Anyway, I've been reading some posts here and from AOPA that Bankstown airport is in decline and I understand that there are some challenges it is facing such as commercial development, short term leases and increasing rents and the general apprehension due to potential impacts from Western Sydney Airport. 

I totally understand that those are pain points. But what if we look at the positive side of things, such as:

- Healthy movement numbers. Comparable to Parafield, Jandakot etc. 

- Strong demand - It's always super busy with 5-7 in a circuit 

- 10 Flight schools based here (strength in numbers!)

- Strategically located in the heart of Sydney (unlike WSI which is basically in the sticks)

- WSI is not a GA airport, so won't take away GA demand from Bankstown

With that, it seems unlikely that things will change around here. It has been this way for a long time and I believe it will stay this way for many years to come! 

I'm just trying to stay positive here, though I am prepared to be grilled...😅