AM397

Oh my god.. Check your facts mate... Crack is NOT meth my learned friend. They are two entirely different drugs, derived from two very different chemicals and produced in two entirley different ways..Once again, you speak with authority on something you know NOTHING about.. Do some research yourself there big buddy...

I'm not your mate, thank goodness.

 

I already mentioned one was "naturally" derived. It's like the difference between morphine and synthetic morphine.

 

However, that doesn't change the point of my post, that the pilot was tested positive for the lowest of the lowest of drugs. Except, I guess one could argue that sniffing spray paint was even lower.

 

 

Hahahahaha.... Coke is the lowest of the low?? Mate, you really do astound me with lack of understanding about subjects you speak with such authority..Stick to what you know mate...

No, not "cocaine". Crack cocaine. And since you don't know, that is methamphetamine, except of course, crack cocaine is "natural" where methamphetamine is 100 percent chemical.

 

 

You know... I shouldn't quote just Gnarly on this because a lot of you have the same affliction... Seriously... Stop talking guys... at least until you understand a little of what you are talking about... You guys do realize that "Over the Counter" drugs FACTUALLY cause more deaths and addiction in Australia than Illegal Drugs? I don't know where you guys get your ideas from??? The gutter press?

Blah, blah.

 

You do realise that crack cocaine is not some "light" drug, right? It's the lowest of the lowest of drugs and one of the most addictive of them all.

 

And you do realize that many over-the-counter products are used for the sole purpose of suicide (i.e. painkillers etc.) and as it easily available, of course people elect that route.

 

 

The topic has been "stickied" to make it easier to find.

Ooh, thanks :)

 

 

Wow . Thanx nev, I'm humbled mate . Truly.Anyway, I'm bowing out. I've been insulted enough today, but its all made better by the respect I get shown by other members an students I've flown with today..

I am reminded of the statement ( not sure who it was) " men care not what the mice think of them"

 

Cheers

Ah, but enough to accuse the "mice" of outrageous things to defend your position. Right, you're the better person ...

 

 

You don't know Motz obviously. He may feel disinclined to respond on his own behalf and I won't do it very well, but he IS a good instructor who has safety and good standards as part of his profile.

Well, that's not what he has shown here. On the contrary, his misplaced loyalty to a pilot who fell asleep (at the very least) while transporting patients and crew as well as testing positive for meth shows that his loyalty is with a pilot, regardless of the facts. He has, as has you, shown that time and time again in this thread.

 

He is a really decent person who helps others.

Who cares? How is that pertinent to this discussion? It doesn't matter how good a person is - that doesn't make him exempt from being wrong. However, I'd say that his intellectual dishonesty where he accuses people not agreeing with him of being racists and homophobes doesn't land him on my list of "decent people". But what do I care, I'm not having coffee with him, and it has no bearing on this discussion.

 

He does have a straightforward way of making his point, but we are all different personalities.

Erm, yeah. And so what? Other people can't be straightforward? You think being straightforward is somehow foreign to me?

 

It seems easy on line to read more of a personal nature in some comments. Bear in mind that a lot of people read these forums and responses may be directed at a much wider audience than just those who have contributed to the particular thread.

I know. I use the internet not only for pleasure, but for work, on a daily basis.

 

If we have to qualify everything to the N'th degree it becomes too ponderous . By and large we make it work here. Nev

Oh, alright. I thought it was you guys who was arguing that the pilot in question was innocent until proven guilty (i.e. in a court of law), and did your utmost to disregard the facts, since he wasn't proven guilty.

 

 

That's exactly what I did. Just did a few lessons with some good people . I feel so much better . :)The thing is there will always be wankers in any crowd an we just have to deal with it. The forum is a place for discussion, and as such people's opinions should be respected.

Insulting airline pilots, commercial pilots, instructors and medical professionals when discussing a subject that these people have more than a passing understanding of, will only serve to make the insulter look more the fool. But worse, will only remove credibility from the point of view he or she is trying to get across..

I'm sorry, but coming up with apologetics to make it seem like that it's a big conspiracy against a pilot and accusing people of being racist and homophobes in the process shows exactly how entrenched and blind you are, simply because the person in question is a pilot.

 

You are the very last person here to cry about insults, with your outrageous accusations and passive-aggressive behaviour.

 

As for your professionalism: Your behaviour truly shows just where your loyalties lie: It's certainly not in the realm of reality or in the interest of safety. There seems to no low which you won't stoop to, in order to make it seem as if the pilot is a victim.

 

 

Your posts are pretty ordinary. That's what I am referring to. We should be able to express opinions whatever they are without being personally insulted. Have you been trained on Pprune? Nev

I began arguing my case, as did you guys and it devolved into this because we disagree. I think you're ignoring the facts, and you think that I'm reading things into the facts. And, frankly, you're hardly in a position to claim innocence in the insult-department, although you're not as bad as the Mozartmerv character.

 

Edit: Who cares if my posts are "ordinary"? I'm not writing a thesis or a hard-hitting news piece, nor making a documentary. Talk about irrelevant insults.

 

 

Charming.Nev

I have no intention of charming you, so I consider that a job well done, then.

 

 

Over 20 years of dealing with these sorts of things and you think I'm naive? Have you ever almost dropped off in a car. You haven't listened to one word about fatigue and roster practices for this kind of operation. Perhaps they should be two pilot ops . When fatigue gets you you go out like a light with no warning. You can be at a busy stage of flight and you just drop off. Any how since you are not listening I will discontinue . Nev

Boohoo.

 

That would all be fine and well if he hadn't tested positive for drugs. Which he did. So, no I'm not listening to willful ignorance and entrenched naivity, nor apologetics where facts are ignored to make your point.

 

 

As I said earlier, I am not suggesting that he's not guilty, just that I would like more information before I make up my mind on what sort of person the pilot is. Being in the industry, I am aware of how the drug testing is carried out, and that obviously there is an issue. That said, I have known people that have returned multiple positive tests, due to medication (yes the testers were informed), and still resulted in hysteria (although local).Objectivity is a quality lacking in our journalism, unless it's about a journalist.

What are you on about? Objectively he was fired after testing positive for drugs, after the ATC lost contact with the plane, after they altered the altitude, and after a fortnight where the RFDS conducted their own investigation. Sorry, but making a conclusion on those facts are not being biased as you imply with your "objective" statement.

 

If you think "objectivity" is about catering to your personal beliefs and/or naivity, you have a lot to learn about journalism and objectivity. It reminds me of those Middle East countries where democracy has recently been introduced, and when the people who voted for the losing parties were asked what they thought about the election, quite a lot of them went "Pshh! Democracy doesn't work. The people I voted for didn't get elected!".

 

I don't care how much involved in "the industry" you are. If the bloke is on so much medication that he falls asleep on the job, then he should have never got into the plane.

 

Seriously, some things are just stupid, but when they involve the lives of others, they become dangerous. I couldn't care less if he was a druggie, if he only pushed papers. I seriously couldn't. But he didn't. He flew other people around for a living and as such was directly responsible for their lives. What the hell would have happened if they weren't on autopilot?

 

 

Way to go, FH.

 

I wasn't saying that only one point of view was acceptable. I was arguing against naivity, and the notion of innocence you guys put forth, while simultaneously arguing against the monochrome worldview that journos are either good or bad, not to mention the attitude that since we can't know it all, then nothing can be known.

 

Whether or not you have saved the reputation of anyone has no bearing whatsoever on you being right or wrong.

 

I think that with the additional facts Oracle1 laid on the table, the discussion is over.

 

P.S. At no time did I think you were condoning drug use, and I sure as hell hope I didn't imply that anywhere? In any case, don't worry.

 

 

I can only assume that you have personally interviewed all those involved and accessed any medical reports.

No, but I can tell you that what Nino DiMarco is quoted as saying is what he actually said. I can tell you too, that the facts are in plain view, and that it took two weeks from the incident to when the RFDS went public with it.

 

On the internet I can find data that will support pretty much anything I want to hear.

Yes, you probably can. But that doesn't mean all sources are equal in any way, sense, or form.

 

No-one here has said he isn't guilty, and the reality is that it's not looking good for the pilot. However, the press in this country do not have a very good record of getting anything right and love a bit of sensationalism, so intelligent people prefer to reserve judgement, wait for the dust to settle, and then see what actually plays out.

Read the article and other articles on this, and with just a little knowledge of writing, you can tell this is really sober reporting of the facts. They even threw in an "alleged" since he hasn't been to court (yet).

 

Testing positive for amphetamines, leaving an altitude, being asleep and not responding to radio transmissions may well be facts, but they dont tell much of a story by themselves, and really isn't proof the the pilot was a drug dependent, reckless criminal.

Wow. The individual thing may not tell a clear story, but add them up and put them together, they most emphatically do.

 

But hey, let's all be that naive. It must be great. With that sort of attitude, everything is just coincidence and journalistic spin.

 

 

Yeah, I thought so :)

 

 

All you have done is demonstrate how journos misquote, twist words and take an angle. All your doing with your childish rants is prove my point. :)

Where have I misquoted you? Where have I twisted your words? And what's with "take an angle"? Is having an opinion now "taking an angle"?

 

I guess outright intellectual dishonesty is not something you aim to avoid. Instead you choose to wallow in it.

 

FH, as for he who is without sin etc. I am without sin. I don't do drugs, nor does people's lives depend on me being clearheaded. Hell, I don't even drive if I'm just slightly hungover.

 

As for the paranoid hillbilly talk from the both of you about journos not being credible, and your utter lack of capacity to differentiate between various sources, papers, and articles, not to mention the different type of article, I'm almost at a loss for words. It's amazing, that unless you're served a fortune cookie answer to whether something is trustworthy, they must either all be bad or all good. Where do you stay up to date about the world we live in?

 

Once again, go do some research. Why would RFDS Queensland Executive Nina DeMarco (spl?) go out an publically say that they offer support for the two patients and the nurse, that the nurse was now on leave, and why would the ATC say that they lost contact after the plane left the designated altitude, if it didn't go awry up there? Add to that that the nurse could explain that the pilot was asleep on that very same trip, explaining why they altered altitude and why there was no radio contact.

 

It may be "standard" to have people "stand down", but he was fired, and the response from RFDS has been that he was fired because they have a no-tolerance drug politics. Now, besides this being put forward to the various aviation authorities, this has also been submitted to the police for investigation.

 

Seriously, I think I'm done with you two. It seems, that anything short of court verdict of "guilty", he must be innocent. That that would mean that drug tests showed false positives, that the ATC lied, that the nurse lied, possibly the patients as well, and the RFDS has overreacted, apparently is irrelevant.

 

 

Please AM397 do try to keep up with the discussion. Where exactly did I call you those things ?

Sorry, I thought it was Mozartmerv who asked us to calm down. I will remove the post, if you want :)

 

 

It's unfortunate that some people are unable to have an informed discussion about such a subject wthout resorting to personal attacks, but that says more about them than anything else.

... says the guy who in his own passive-aggressive way called everyone not agreeing with him on this topic for racists and homophobes.

 

 

AM.Once again, and still being missquoted.. Do they teach you guys how to do that?

I didn't misquote you at all, but coming from someone who resort to calling people homophobes and racists (albeit with slightly different wording), your opinion is counted for absolutely zero in my book.

 

Ill say it one last time. IF this story is true, then the pilot deserves everything that comes his way.

Learn to do some research. The RFDS fired the bloke, and ATC lost contact with the aeroplane. For this not to be true, it has to be a big plot to get rid of the pilot, which is, frankly, highly unlikely, given the organisations involved in this.

 

If the story has twisted the "facts" to sensationalize it then shame on them.

Yes, more passive-aggressive insinuations from your hand. Do even a little bit of research. Go check the official statements of the RFDS, for one.

 

Ive not once said this dude is "innocent", just asked people hold off judgment until the facts are in.

And in the process called us racists and homophobes. Enough of the facts are in to say that the pilot had no control of the aircraft, that he lost contact to the ATC, that he tested positive for methamphetamine, which is further corroborated by the on-board nurse.

 

One news article does not constitue "fact" in my book, nor the book of law in this country the last time i checked..

If you had even a modicum interest, you had done a bit of research yourself. This is one news article, yes, but there are official statements from the RFDS to back it up. It doesn't take much to do a bit of research. Further, the article linked in this thread is quite a sober one, recounting what was said by the RFDS and so on. Nothing sensationalist about that.

But by now I realise that it doesn't matter what is real or not, what is factual or not: You won't go there. You need a court decision before you can figure out to weigh evidence and sources.

 

 

It is actual facts. Do a search for this story, and you will find that unless you think the ATC and RFDS are in on some conspiracy with the nurse and are lying through the teeth, those are actual facts.

 

Of course, that is possible as well. As for saying that the media is wrong more than it is right is ridiculous, unless you think of something like Fox News. The article is a straight forward reporting of what has happened. If you choose to ignore that, simply because he hasn't been to court (yet), you're naive.

 

I like how you twist this so you can call me (and others) homophobes and racists in your own juvenile passive-aggressive style. Seriously, how low can you sink?

 

Is it extreme narrow minded prejudice thatcauses such knee jerk reactions? I can imagine some of you if the pilot was a black gay bloke aswel. There would be a lynch mob after him.

Every one just settle down, if he's guilty he will have consequences.

Yes, let's all "settle down" after being called racist and homophobes by the very same guy!

 

If you want to ignore facts because it's not yet proven in a court of law, be my guest. I prefer to live in the real world, rather than having to rely on a given court system before I can make my mind up.

 

Oh, and you're not proven "innocent" in court. You're either guilty or found not guilty. Not being found guilty, doesn't mean you're not actually guilty. It means a guilty-verdict wasn't born out of the evidence.

 

 

Oh, and lest I forget, the matter has been referred to the police as well.

 

 

Yes, before finishing someones career, someone who I presume started flying for the same or similar reasons that we all did, I'd like facts.What would you like to have presented if you were the one being accused of something, heresay or facts.

Otherwise let's just have a kangaroo court and execute anyone we don't like eh ?

 

Here's a thought for you. The report that the pilot was asleep came from the nurse.

 

What was his relationship with the nurse ? Do you know ? Does she have an agenda ? Did they have a relationship and just break up ?

 

I don't know and neither do you.

You conveniently forget quite a few things: He was fired after this, and he tested positive for methamphetamine. He didn't respond to radio calls either, so it's much more than just the words of the nurse. You really want to make this seem like the pilot is the victim here, regardless of the facts.

 

I am surprised at you AM397, you say you work in journalism but you're prepared to hang a guy you never met on the basis of one newspaper story.Shame on you !

You are in no position to tell me to be ashamed. Yes, I am a journalist, and as such I'm not naive. Unlike you.

 

He was fired for a reason, and he tested positive for methamphetamine. Unlike you, I don't feel a need to grasp at straws to make up excuses for someone who was fired and tested positive for drugs.

 

Let me quote something for you, since you still try to make this seem like it's all a big misunderstanding probably caused by nasal spray or the like, and some hearsay from a nurse:

 

[...] Air Traffic Control became concerned after the King Air left its assigned altitude without clearance about 42 minutes into a flight from Bundaberg.

RFDS Queensland CEO Nino Di Marco said the plane lost contact with Air Traffic Control for 13 minutes.

If anything, shame on you for trying to defend a pilot who put people's lives at risk, who tested positive for drugs and was fired as a result, and trying to make it seem like this is personal vendetta against a pilot.

 

The fact remains: He was fired after investigation, he tested positive for drug use, he left the designated altitude, he didn't respond to radio calls, and the nurse says he was asleep during that period.

 

 

I will try to keep this post updated if I can do that with the opening post, however, I figured that with so many threads going on, we need something that creates an overview, so here it is:

 

The long thread in which most information are discussed as it hits the news:

 

RAAus Fails CASA Audit Again:

 

http://www.recreationalflying.com/threads/raaus-fails-casa-audit-again.50744/

 

The thread about how people could attend, and why they can't:

 

So what would stop you attending a GM in Canberra in coming weeks

 

http://www.recreationalflying.com/threads/so-what-would-stop-you-attending-a-gm-in-canberra-in-coming-weeks.51661/

 

The thread about the firing of Adam Finn, now former Technical Managaer at RAAus:

 

Tech Manager gone:

 

http://www.recreationalflying.com/threads/tech-manager-gone.51601/

 

The call for a general meeting and a downloadable form letter:

 

Time for significant changes:

 

http://www.recreationalflying.com/threads/time-for-significant-changes.51448/

 

Early warning signs:

 

RA-Aus Demise and CASA Takeover Due Member Apathy:

 

http://www.recreationalflying.com/threads/ra-aus-demise-and-casa-takeover-due-member-apathy.51546/

 

About the still missing audited accounts:

 

Vote of No Confidence in the Treasurer:

 

http://www.recreationalflying.com/threads/vote-of-no-confidence-in-the-treasurer.51717/

 

Which topics or issues should be brought up at the General Meeting:

 

Emergency General Meeting:

 

http://www.recreationalflying.com/threads/emergency-general-meeting.51726/

 

A General Meeting of Members has been called for early Feb 2013

 

RAAus General Meeting Called

 

http://www.recreationalflying.com/threads/raaus-general-meeting-called.52288/

 

 

I don't know, neither do you, none of us have the full facts. All I am saying is that the pilot should be given the same rights that everybody has, and be assumed innocent until PROVEN guilty. All we have is a news report and as we know they are all meticulously researched and triple checked ......Anyone here got proof ?

So, it has to be proven in a court, otherwise you're not satisfied.

 

No, I don't know if those things are sold in Australia, but you were the one who mentioned those drugs, stating it could be those things giving a positive, so the burden of proof is on you.

 

The guy feel asleep for at least 13 minutes while flying patients and a nurse and tested positive for drugs, and he was fired after two weeks.

 

So which is most likely: That he actually was a drughead, or that he "merely" fell asleep after having used a nasal spray and that the test showed the use of the wrong methamphetamine (i.e. the ADHD or the nasal spray)?

 

Sorry, but I don't have a pocket full of apologetics to defend the indefensible.

 

 

I think that even if this will be the death knell for RA-Aus as it is now, that doesn't mean an organisation is not needed. In fact, it might be needed sooner than later if RA-Aus are suddenly bankrupt or otherwise dead.

 

So, even though some might be thinking "good riddance" in the heat of the moment, some sort of organisation is needed, whether that be revision of attitude, people, and structure of the existing one or a completely new rising from the ashes. And even that "new" organisation needs to work, and work well, to make it less prone to cronyism, secrecy and utter failures which seem ripe in the current organisation.

 

 

Come to think of it, wouldn't a drug test be able to show that it was, say, dextro-meth, levo-meth or something else?