metalman

Hi all, im wondering if anyone knows Geoff Lawrence , he was an instructor back in the 90's in QLD in a skyfox , he was then ferrying caravans around but then i lost contact with him, I'd really like to track him down if anyone knows him

Sure Ian , I retail stuff aswell and if I vilified my customers publicly instead of apologising I'd expect to get some feedback , but hey it's your bat n ball

Alright ,perhaps clear prop does provide a wonderful service ,,,but here we are almost October and someone has bought and paid for something two months ago , and he's the bad guy for not being happy about it ,really,,,where is that time frame considered okay, aircraft spruce will inform you within hours if something isn't in stock and give you the option of getting the in stock items sent separatly, is there really anyone on this forum who would pay for something over the net ,then wait weeks on end with no correspondence ,and be expected to just say nothing !

I very much doubt it ,,,,,

There's a few Kitfoxs on my field, a few fold the wings every time ,I don't ,but then I have the room not to, it takes about 10-15 mins to prep them to fly . There's one of the Coldstream ones for sale in the RAA members market, they're great little aircraft .

So I'm guessing if you have a bad experience with a store you can have a whinge about ,unless the store owner does some stuff for free ,then you need to suck it up , personally I bought some charts from clear prop about 6-7 years ago ,took so long I ended up calling to see what was up , turns out they had to go to another retailer ,buy the stuff, then post it on to me,,,,,lesson for me was just go to the well known suppliers first up,,,,but hey ,if someone does enough free stuff I guess bad service doesn't matter.

We still aren't getting it,

It's not about the location,,,all the fond memories of Narromine ,Holbrook and mangalore happened at a time when a Skyfox was the fastest UL out there, drifters and thrusters were the norm , RV,s thorps and the experimentals were faster ,but there was plenty of slower VH stuff,,,,,,but the flyins thrived ,,we need to understand that it's our thinking that's the problem.

Our type of flying is about the journey ,not just the destination, actually when you get to the destination you talk about the journey!

I spent two hours on Sunday just gone flying to a mates place for lunch then a bit of site seeing, I didn't ring him to see if we could meet half way , I just enjoyed the trip , and the lunch at the other end.

If a two hour flight is the reason a FLYIN ,yes FLY in, fails then we deserve to see them go for good. For me Narromine is 5-6 hours , I don't dread it ,it's part of the weekend . I also go to flyins that are in Melbourne ,but flying in is more to do with the road traffic than adventure .

I say again, these flyins succeed or fall because of one thing only ,pilots wanting to get together , everything else flows from that , I mean we FLY PLANES ,it's a FLY in,,,,if the actual flying is so onerous then maybe we need two types of flyins , lots of little ones on the coast for the consumers and one big one somewhere for the aviators!

It is all up to us whether these events succeed or fail,,,,,just US ,,,,,,everything else flows from our willingness( makes it sound like hard work ) to go to these events !

Not sure about paying suppliers to come but I have heard ridiculous costs for a patch of dirt, maybe make it free to display something you'd get a better response, or give the sponsor a free spot and they give prize money,trophy for the flying competitions ,,,,there's no cost for the flyin and to suppliers get a years worth of advertising on a trophy, win win !

Now we're talking ,,,making memories :-)

Barn dance BBQ ,,,,very informal ,,,cool

Flying comps are great to watch, and compete in,love it!

Give the aircraft sales people a slot to display their aircraft.

On a three day weekend run an observation rallying one morning,,,maybe an hour nav ,see the area without needing to "arrive"

Make it easy for people to give anyone who desires a quick lap

Break up the airshow ,a morning session and an arvo one so peeps can scoot if needed,,,maybe some fireworks one night ( maybe expensive ,but if it grows into something big)

And it really doesn't matter if it's on a public holiday,,,taking a Friday and Monday off if you've got plenty of notice and it planned forisn't huge ,Oshkosh is an ordinary week ( and it's in the middle of no where to ,relatively ) ,

Apart from the "moving" posts I still think we've got to change how we see these events , the idea that the event exists to promote or further aviation is probably a part of the problem, do we ever wonder why there's no need to promote sex, I mean there's toys shops and the like ,but you really don't have to convince people it's worth the effort.

So if we use the same principle with any other past time we might find the best way to promote something is for others to see it's pretty damn fun. Oshkosh last year there's a heap of pilots who were doing free joyflights ,non stop ,for the week , and everyone who went for a lap had a big grin,,,,,sex is good !

So perhaps if ,instead of seeing the event as a big PR oppurtunity , we turn up , in our planes where possible , and have fun,, chat with mates, chat with strangers, even take them for a flight if you want , just ENJOY what is meant to be our passion ,,,,,,,,and that would do several things ,,,it would make for great experiences ,friendships and memories ,,,,,, passion is contagious ,by just being passionate we would promote our sport by simply being happy.

Think about what's the best memories some of you have from the past events ( mangalore , Narromine ) was it the deep satisfaction that you'd done a bang up job promoting the sport ,,,,or was it's the flying ,the mateship, the camping ,drinks around the tents after the suns gone, the tall stories ,the plans for the future adventures,,,,,,

Th

Consider that you can't leave until after 1600, and that last light on the coast was in the order of 1810. Given the fairly low cloud base on the day, I don't think you would have made it home to anywhere east of the mountain, at least not with a margin of safety. Add in the queue to leave; how many people were off the ground before 1630?

6-700 aircraft turned up at Temora for the first Natfly I went to,,,what went wrong, was it just bad pr, sour grapes? I thought it was great, and was surprised at the event being bagged, I think that has more to do with people going . We now have a dissection of AUSFLY and I can see the same remarks , what do we want or expect, what will it take for us to support an event , or are we collectively quite happy to not bother?

IMHO a huge measure of success is if the traders want to come back next year. If the traders come both aviation and food, then it is likely that the people will come. Likewise if the people come, then it is likely that the traders will as well.As for location, it is a flyin. So long as there is enough hard bed accommodation for those who want it then where it is shouldn't really matter. For those who do not want to fly in then it needs to be near enough to and RPT airport with suitable accommodation/car hire. I think Narromine in association with Dubbo just about covers that. As I say just my opinion but the one time I landed at Narromine, I thought it was a beautiful little town and lets face it the people in the country could do with some of our dollars.

The reply invariably " not this time ,if it's any good I'll go next year" , and suddenly the flyin is not getting the most important resource ,Pilots and aircraft.

Why is Oshkosh and sun n fun world renowned ,the numbers,,,everything else flows from that, the first Natfly I went to was Temora ,6-700 aircraft I was told , heaps of displays ,heaps of food vendors ,a bit lacking in flying displays but it was the biggest flyin in the country ,,,,,,I spent the weekend catching up with mates from all over the country ,checked out the sales stuff , had a look in the museum , and got home to read how big of a failure it was,,,and it eventually was a failure , if we want great events then we have to support them , it is entirely up to us the pilots

Heres a thought, instead of dissecting the location why not look at it this way

1/ the success of a flying is determined by the number of aircraft on the ground

2/ the success of a flyin is determined by the number of pilots/attendees

3/ if the attendances are high business will deem it worth the effort to display the products

4/ if attendance is high there will be plenty of food vans

How about instead of thinking how we can move the flyin to somewhere else why not take ownership of its success !

Everyone I've talked to goes to these things( myself included) to catch up with mates number one, to see some flying displays ,two ,and to have a look around at some new planes or trinkets ,,,,,but if we all think of reasons why it's not worth while then we will get ,,,,,NOTHING!

Has anyone flown both a Eurofox and a Savannah? How do they compare throughout the flight envelope, the take off and the landing?

Metalman, it's interesting to hear your comments. I haven't flown the taildrager version (2k) and certainly not the bush tyres. All short-coupled tailwheel aircraft will bite the unwary.As for the adverse yaw, I can't say I've noticed it to be a problem, although as I started my piloting life flying gliders, I've never been afflicted with lazy feet - perhaps that's why I haven't had an issue - regardless of flaps. Note that more recent versions of Eurofox (like mine) have a taller vertical stabiliser fin, so they are more directionally stable... perhaps that has made all the difference??

 

As for wing flex... again, haven't noticed it as an issue. Factory wing-loading tests have shown it is structurally strong in all the sandbag loading & certification tests I've seen photos of. There's nothing negative in my opinion.... again, perhaps I'm too biased??

As for the adverse yaw try pulling on about half flap and then bank without using the rudder,,,its not a problem if you use ya feet but it's a good demonstration .

Sorry if I was sounding negative , I've got about 60-70 hours in the eurofox and over 200 in a Skyfox type, and a few mates with kitfoxs ,,,believe me if I had a $100k kicking around I'd have a eurofox ,,,,,or a kitfox 7 ,,,,,or a Rans S20,,,,,, mmmm a highlander ,,,,,,so many planes so little money

Mmmm eurofox , everything the Skyfox should've , could've been, they are a delight to fly and beautifully built , the one I put a few hours on has 26' bush tyres , it gives it a few traits for take off and landing that are a surprise , I doubt you could do a bad three pointer in it , just chop the power at nearly any reasonable height and it soaks it up, pin it to aggressively in a wheeler and a that rubber trying to catch up give you a pitch forward that you're not ready for.

I flew it with the original smaller tyres a couple of times and they're still quite a snappy taildragger , again , sloppy feet and it'll bite ya. , the wider track definatly helps tame it though.

As with all these types , if you want to experience adverse yaw to a rather noticeable degree ( read barely turntable) try a turn with your feet off the rudder pedals , in the eurofox pull on a bit of flap and it gets even worse , nothing that can't be fixed by using your feet , but it a great way to demonstrate something that has been "tuned " out of many types and does tend to encourage lazy footwork.

Something that I didn't like and after seeing a wing off a plane it's clear why, as you fly the eurofox the outer wing , from the strut attachment , moves a lot , it doesn't flap around nearly as much in the Skyfox , the reason again is no vertical web in the spar , the Skyfox guys got it right when they designed the spars , sadly you can't buy the extrusions any more.

A lot of misinformation here , firstly , there hasn't been a case of a Skyfox shedding a wing , ever !

There has been a couple of break ups , one was an aircraft that was left outside in a tropical environment , the timber ribs were rotten and when pulled into a low level steep turn the aileron departed taking the outer wing with it.

Another broke up after being illegally aerobated .

Aileron hangers have been a problem , but it's interesting that since the AD on them there hasn't been an inflight problem , it is also a relative easy fix now .

As for landings and take offs , I've got around 250 hours in mine , I've flown it in all plenty different conditions and crosswind strengths and it performs wonderfully , it doesn't forgive sloppy pilots , but is an extremely rewarding aircraft to operate.

I am very aware of airspeeds in her and never fly fast in rough air , as is the smart way to operate any aircraft.

As for differences between the kitfoxes 3-4 and the Skyfox

They share the same basic construction, the Skyfox spars are much stronger as is the fuselage , which does make them heavier , the Kitfox stall is lower which reduces the landing speeds ( maybe contributing to them being considered easy to land) the also retain the flap operation in the ailerons ( making a flaperon )which also helps with landing speeds.

The rudder is slightly bigger on the KF , and the trim system is much better .

Some of the KF have airfoil shaped formers in the tail feathers , I'm not sure on the benefits to this as the cruise speeds are very similar ( discounting the KF Speedwing , I have a mate with one and the bugger will keep up with a eurofox with 20 less HP )

Tube sizes in the fuse are generally smaller in the KF.

As for landing difficulty I've seen plenty of KF ground loop results , they are both a short coupled tail draggers , both light and neither will forgive sloppy feet , have I come close ,yep , nearly lost it in a 25 knot crosswind at yarrawonga a while back , but I've also learned more about flying stick n rudder from my jigger than any other aircraft I've ever flown , they are a good aircraft that could've been great if the company had lasted , and if you get a chance to give one a go I'd highly recommend it

The big difference is the product liability insurance.

Whoa,,,,freaky man,,,,,

The worst open door incident I had was when my passenger decided he was going to vomit after becoming very sick during a rough flight. In a PA28, he opened the door to stick his head out but the slip stream was too strong. I throttled back to about 70 knots, added some flap and held her steady. Next minute my mate removes his seat belt and leans right out saying he doesn't want any chunder coming back in the plane. With about half his body out the plane he suddenly slips out, due to turbulence. Oh God I thought, just grabbing his ankle in time. For what seemed forever we're flying around with me holding his ankle and trying to keep the plane flying and him screaming and carrying on like a fool. Gradually I realised he sounded like a girl and was somehow slapping my face. Confused and bewildered I slowly woke to find my girl friend slapping me about and yelling "What the hell are you doing, let go of my ankle you idiot" at the top of her voice. That was some dream, probably caused by the pizza. (This story has been embellished with exaggerations and lies for your amusement, oh, and to test the new system.)

Does Bourke have a Bourke st,,,,,,,I'd be cool if he did it out there

Interesting, I had a look at the Cessna 172 as an example ,cost in 1969 was $12500 usd and in 2013 was $274900 , it works out that in 1969 it would take 166 weeks pay but now it's 249, odd that it's was cheaper to buy than rent years ago but the opposite nowadays.

They had a women in aviation day at our field last year and had a really big turn out, maybe the open day thing is a consideration, I've often thought if a school ran a competition on the radio for a few free TIFs in conjunction with an open day kind of thing it might build a bit of exposure. A lot has to do with the school aswell , YLIL is generally pretty busy but the school at YCEM doesn't do anywhere the hours ,not sure why though,

In light of recent behaviour in Iraq ,maybe there is a rather large flying bomb sitting in a hanger somewhere ,,,waiting,,,waiting,Just a thought ,

Matty

I think FT might be a closet "leftie"

Fact hunter is on the money , for me the social side is as important as the flying, just tooling around by yourself gets a bit boring, but the $100($250@2014 prices?) hamburger scenario makes it an enjoyable social event.

I do see in my sons the computer game thing, they tend to live vicariously through the little man on the screen rather than make the effort to do it for real, having said that ,there is a few young ones learning at Coldstream but unless mum n dad are pitching in there's a lot of after school work needed to pay for aeroplanes.

Cost wise I couldn't afford to own my own plane if it was certified, the maintenance would tip it over the line for me, experimental category and RAA have really done a lot to bring it into the grasp of the average person.

Had a jump door pop open on a C185 at short final a few years back, scared the sh*t out of me but the plane flew fine! I landed ,stopped ,slammed the bas**rd shut! and continued on, the one that gives me chills if the thought of a rear hinging canopy coming open( ripping off actually) ,that would be a shocker