JoeDallas

I must say the system actually looked quite elegantly engineered to me, more so than how you imply. Whilst perhaps a somewhat minor feature the level of detail and neatness of design in this alone impressed me and suggested the same effort was likely being applied across the whole engine. I wonder if you have gotten info direct from CAMit yet or are you just relying on comments here Joe? If you are not in such a rush then perhaps Osh Kosh would be a good place to inspect all these engines in detail.

I never said the system is not the best answer to the problem of rust.

I said: I'm not sure the spay of oil in the cylinders at shutdown with a hand pump is the best solution to the rust problem. ( It maybe )

The system may look quite elegantly engineered.

Is spraying oil every time really the best thing to do to a engine

If notches in the top of the pistons is a bandage.

Then maybe this is the same for the rusting problem ( maybe not )

As I said I will talk to Camit before I make my final choice

I have to say I am liking what I see with the D-motor

Joe D

To tell the truth Joe, I thought Vans did a good job designing the -12 around the Rotax 912s, if you want more power than that, there's always the 914, or you could look at the Italian super charger kit mod.Expensive?, well I guess you only get what you pay for...

If you like the look of Jabiru because it reminds you of ancient big iron (Lycosaurus), then you could look at the Lyco 233, but be prepared to fit your own ignition system (see elsewhere on site).

I think van did a good job with the design of all their Aircraft.

I have a engineering background and get pleasure designing and building.

Let's face the fact that as a builder you will spend a lot more time building then flying in most cases.

My 12 is a EAB Aircraft for a reason ( I don't want a cookie cutter aircraft )

And let me assure you it has nothing to do with money.

My aircraft has flush rivets, electric flaps , electric canopy lock and lift, parking breaks, all Garmin panel, fuel tanks in the wings, heated pitot with AOA, two side rear windows, rudder trim, additional seat adjustments, different rudder pedals, removable cross member at seat back, different tail cone door, battery in tail cone and a 100HP +Engine to be named later.

As a designer I don't Like A engine with a Gear Box.

I don't want to start a debit about this, the vibration between a 4 cylinder and a 6 cylinder is clear and 5 minutes of 100 HP is not enough.

My aircraft will weigh about 30 lbs more + or -

I need the HP

Thanks

Joe D

QUOTE="facthunter, post: 493670, member: 134"]. If we are going to get answers we need to stop loyalties and stick to real facts.

Let's get the emotive exaggerations out of this argument. Its' been a constant enemy of progress. Nev

I agree.

The two companions attacking each other is not a good thing.

Sounds alot like how the politicians talk ( Only telling what the other is doing wrong )

I sure that both companies want to solve their problems.

I would like to see how each company address each problem.

This is now hurting both companies.

Buying a engine from either company at this time may not be wise.

I am now considering the UL and D-motor and the 0200D Engines in case Jabiru don't get the 3310 in production and test It.

I will also look at the Camit engine if they can show that the new version of their engine ( it would be nice if they would give a new identity ) has solved all the problems I'm not sure the spay of oil in the cylinders at shutdown with a hand pump is the best solution to the rust problem.

My View

Joe D

Joe, I guess the answers you get from CAMit or Jabairu would depend on what questions you asked.If you didn't than maybe you should sit down and draw up a list of questions and fire them off to CAMit - then you've started the conversation and hopefully you'll get information you need to make a sound decision.

You are right, however at the time I sent the email I did not know the right questions to ask.

There email said that they would have a US distributor by Oshkosh.

I talked to Pete from Jabiru at SunNfun and got his view on both engines, of course in his view the Jabiru is the best choice and they have solved all their problems.

I'm sure when I talk to the US distributor for Camit the response will be the Camit Engine is the best choice and they have solved all their problems.

This forum has been great to help get additional views on these engine ( thanks to all who replied )

Some points that may or may not matter.

Camit

Solid lifters should add more HP

Oil injection system is needed if you can't get to the airport weekly

Jabiru

Roller cam allows for steeper ramps should add more HP.

Nikasil Cylinders should stop the rust problem.

Recessed pistons to prevent major engine damage if a valve doesn't close fast enough.

Both Companies believe they solved the problems with the thru bolt, valve geometry and the flywheel bolts.

I think the fallout between these two companies is not a good thing, two heads are better than one.

I am concerned with who will be making the parts for Jabiru.

My view

Thanks All

Joe D

FYI, a hunt around Camit site and here will tell you plenty about it. Ian is a very dedicated engineer and knows these engines possibly better than anyone else.Camit produces parts and assembled Jabiru engines to Jabiru specifications since the beginning. They were in partnership throughout development

Now Jabiru have decided to go elsewhere for parts, like on the new engine.

 

Camit have begun selling their own version of the engines a few years ago.

 

They have gone back to solid lifter version, considered a superior setup with far less issues, and continued development from there.

 

Many upgrades inside including better oil control and distribution, stronger cylinders and improved throughbolts, better head material, better rocker geometry, new flywheel attachment, new altenator, the list is long.

 

All parts are very high quality

 

They look the same but definitely are not.

 

Camit offer an inhibitor system which injects oil into cylinders with a pull of a cable, no plugs, no cowl removal, can be done every shutdown.

 

The new roller followers and recessed pistons from Jab exist, but there are still valvetrain, cylinder, throughbolt and flywheel problems.

 

Jabiru are promoting these upgrades due to the pressure they are under to improve reliability.

 

The new cylinders etc essentially do not exist yet. They look nice but are a major change and will no doubt bring up new problems which will need sorting out. I expect Jabiru will release them but this doesnt mean all issues found or fixed.

 

They have a long way to go to restore user confidence.

Joe D

I don't see the connection between the issue and nikasil bores.The OEM originals are having the same issues and if you are familiar with the differences between a major engine manufacturer and an aftermarket supplier, the higher rate of failure for the aftermarket supplier, as low as it is, is of no surprise.

I'm not to sold on nikasil, it's true they solve the corrosion problem, but read this:http://www.avweb.com/blogs/insider/ECI-Cylinder-AD-The-More-You-Look-the-Worse-It-Is-220510-1.html

 

There must be a reason why millennium's cylinders are preferred instead of Eci's nikasil.

These light weight Engines are driving me nuts.

I wish the FAA would get some sense and change the light sport weight to 1450Lbs, so we could use a real aircraft engine

Joe,I don't understand your comment that it will be some time before you'll be able to buy a Jab or CAMit engine. You can place your order for a CAMit 3300 engine at 8:30 am Monday morning, and if Ian Bent doesn't have one on the shelf I woud bet he'll have one built and dyno tested by the end of the week. Have you actually spoken to CAMit or just looked over their web site? As I said in an earlier post, give him a call or email him. Get his view on when you can get an engine.

 

I don't know if or when there will be a Jabiru 3310 engine. You'd need to talk to Jabiru and see what they can tell you about that.

 

Cylinder corrosion can be a problem in any engine. You'll need to take appropriate preventative action no matter what engine you use.

I sent a email to Camit and they said that they should have a dealer in the US by Oshkosh.

The 3300 engine that Jabiru sells is made by Camit ( or some of the parts are made by Camit )

I am still confused by this arrangement. ( Chicken or Egg )

As I sated earlier ( They don't have a roller cam or notches in there pistons for valve relief or Nikasil Cylinders ) and ( The cylinder corrosion is a big issue to me, if I can't make it to the airport for some reason I don't want to be worrying about the cylinders rusting. )

I would like to talk to some from Camit to see how they address these Items.

And what makes there engine any better than the Jabiru 3300 and the jab 3310 If it ever gets

built.

If some form Camit wants to contact me they have my Email address that I sent them last week

I will send it again today

Thanks Again

Joe D

Thanks All for your info

It seems that if I go with a Jabiru or CAMit it will be some time before I will be able to buy a engine.

The cylinder corrosion is a big issue to me, if I can't make it to the airport for some reason I don't want to be worrying about the cylinders rusting.

Taking time to prep the engine every time I leave the airport, in case I can't get back within a week or two isn't a solution I can live with.

If the new Jabiru parts don't interchange with the 2200 and 3300 engines, why would anyone buy these if they may be replaced with the 2210 and 3310 Engines.

It seems to me that Jabiru needs to put there effort in high gear a get more test engines in some aircraft.

Maybe the lack of information from Jabiru is so they can keep selling the old engines until they get their act together

My View

I prefer to use a Jabiru 3310 in my RV12, if it is available by the end of this year.

Again

Thanks all for your comments

Joe D

Well that s not the case!If you use your engine very regularly then the cylinders wont be an issue...if you leave it longer than a week between uses then the manual says you must inhibit the engine because the bores will corrode. The manual is correct and I know that because I'm on my second set of barrels and pistons in my J3300 due to corrosion...... A rebuild which included changing all the internal Studs and through bolts (for a solid lifter engine that from what I know doesn't really need them changed ) cost close to 90% of the cost of a new engine...so not exactly a minor issue!!!

 

Andy

I sent a email to Camit

They have no distributor in the USA at this time.

They said they should have one by Oshkosh.

They don't have a roller cam or notches in there pistons for valve relief or Nikasil Cylinders.

Isn't the same as the old 3300 Jab

Or am missing something.

Getting info on these Engines is like pulling teeth

I would really like more info on the 2210 and 3310 and the Camit Engines.

Thanks

Joe D

Is there any one that is flying behind a D-motor and can compare it to the Rotax, UL, or Jabiru.

I am building a RV12 and need a engine by the end of this year.

Any help will be appreciated.

Joe D

From the Jabiru factory today, some information regarding a new engine. Looks interesting, not only new cast cylinders/heads but it looks like the induction is very different too.As we keep saying the Research and Development never stops here at Jabiru. For the last 4 years the Jabiru engineers have been working on the development of the “2210” engine. It’s exciting news!!! There is still work to be done but we are edging closer to the possible launch of this new engine. We are planning to initially release it as an experimental engine. Eventually there will also be a six cylinder released as well.

 

 

 

 

 

 

We have now accumulated just over 800 hours in test time and it is performing well. The engine has non corrosive aluminium cylinders with nickel and silicon carbide bores. These cylinders have three times the thermal conductivity of steel and the bores have very low friction and high wear resistance. The cast cylinders are more robust than the steel cylinders we currently use. We will keep you updated on the progress......... in the meantime we have attached some pictures for you of the “2210”

 

 

 

[ATTACH=full]35009[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=full]35010[/ATTACH]

Does any know if these parts will fit the current engines and if they think they will be available this year.

I am building a RV12 and will need a engine by the end of this year and the 3310 looks promising.

I already have the firewall forward kit for the 3300 and on hold waiting for Jabiru to get it in gear.

( Eventually )

Wishful thinking.

Joe D

Nice comment to put things in perspective.At the end of the day your going to have an rv to cruise around in! Who cares whether it is powered by a rotax or jabiru engine (I fly jabirus all the time). Its going to be an rv! Some people never get the chance to own their own aircraft, especially one with the rvs pedigree and performance.

 

Enjoy!

The plan is to move to Winchester TN when I finish the Aircraft.

Does anyone have any thoughts about the D-Motor or UL

I will be ready for a Engine before the end of this year

I do not want a engine with a gear box.

If I could solve the W&B I would use a real Aircraft engine Continental O-200 or the Lycoming 233.

Jabiru may take to long to solve there problems

Thanks all for your comments

Joe D

Nice comment to put things in perspective.At the end of the day your going to have an rv to cruise around in! Who cares whether it is powered by a rotax or jabiru engine (I fly jabirus all the time). Its going to be an rv! Some people never get the chance to own their own aircraft, especially one with the rvs pedigree and performance.

 

Enjoy!

Ok

Thanks for the Camit information.

In my view the Rotax engine is over priced

I would rather put the money in the panel.

The Jabiru may not be the best choice.

The light sport weight of 1320 lbs makes this difficult and unsafe.

Continental spent a lot of money to cut 20lbs off the 0200.

Cutting weight out of the Aircraft is also not a good idea.

If the light sport weight was about 1450 lbs we could put a safe engine in out aircraft, not a Jabiru or a chain saw engine.

There's a difference in saving money and wasting money.

I may have over reacted to the money comment.

Also your resale comment may or may not be true.

The fact is I will have a lot more money in my 12 then the standard RV12

However I will have the aircraft I want.

Sorry for my reaction to your comments.

Joe D

You mean theway I pointed you towards Camit and helped you understand the differences between them and Jabiru as well

 

as informing you of Jabiru's upcoming new models? You are the one, not me, who stated "less money" as a factor

 

so one might presume you are trying to save money.

 

Based on your, not my, comment, I stated a fact;

 

The value of your RV12 with a Jabiru engine will be lower.

 

I was pointing out, trying to be helpful, that the money saving in the long run would be false economics - I am merely a messenger.

 

You mean the way I pointed him towards Camit and helped him understand the differences between them and Jabiru as well as informing him of Jabiru's upcoming new models?

 

We obviously have some distance in our beliefs of what helpful is.

 

Ok, ....

 

[ATTACH=full]35560[/ATTACH]

It works with the battery in the tail.

jabiru 3300 81 kg installed , rotax 64 kg installedhow does this affect the weight and balance

I guessing that you didn't look at my site like you are guessing that I don't have any money

Saving money is not the reason that I will not use a Rotax

I guessing again that you agree with all the other reasons I listed

I would put a Continental O200-D if I could get the W&B in range.

Some people love Rotax Engines I am not one of them.

As some like Fords and some like Chevy.

Is it customary on this site to jump on somebody that has a different option.

We all love our Aircraft and there is so many types , should we all be flying the same Aircraft

If you like Rotax I will respect your opinion please respect my opinion.

Really? I guess if you haven't got the cash up front then that's the bottom line, but the resale value of your RV12 will be far lower than the difference between the Jab engine and the Rotax.

Thanks

Sounds a bit confusing

Chicken or egg

Bill Gates and IBM

I guess I will be talking to CaMit

Thanks

Joe D

Camit are the engineering works that manufacturer the engine for Jabiru. Camit builds the certified engines for Jabiru to the certified spec and Camit also sell their own non-certified version with some modifications they believe resolve some on-going Jabiru problems (as they see it). Jabiru can't make the same changes without going through the whole re-certifying process unfortunately - seems the system is a little bit broken.

No gear box

Lower RPM

More HP

6 cylinders

Less vibration

Less Money

Joe D

Looks good but why are you going to go with a jabiru engine

Can someone tell me what is the relationship between Jabiru and Camit is

Thanks all for the welcome

Joe D

You might like to search the forum for and Google "Camit" engines, they are improved and optimised Jabiru engines and highly thought of around here.

I am building EAB it is still a light sport Aircraft

In my View that is a advantage building the plane I want

I thought the RV12's advantage was in being a certified LSA, does that not mean you have to use the certified Rotax engine?

Yes See www.joesrv12.com

The site is not up to date to busy building

Planning on a Jabiru Engine

Welcome. Nice aircraft! Do you have any pictures of the build?

Building Vans RV12