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Kyle Communications

Dual sticks for Savannah's

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I managed to clock some time in a local Savannah VG with dual sticks, and my impression compared to the split central stick is that the added mechanical linkages make the dual stick a lot stiffer and more tiring to fly than with the default arrangement. That said, on final approach I was using the rudder pedals more than the stick to align with the runway.

 

 

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As far as I know the VG never had a factory option for dual sticks so it must have been a add-on done later. It all goes to how long the stick is as well. I know Blairs one had quite short sticks and it was very heavy on it. I will do mine with longer sticks for sure. I got in contact with a guy in the USA and he sent me his package he did for his CH701....it looks fantastic he has all the drawings and even .stl files of 3D models of parts. I will start to get something together the same. I will post a few pics here he sent me. His aircraft is just getting signed off now. He based it all on the CH601 dual stick drawings

 

Mark

 

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I managed to clock some time in a local Savannah VG with dual sticks, and my impression compared to the split central stick is that the added mechanical linkages make the dual stick a lot stiffer and more tiring to fly than with the default arrangement. That said, on final approach I was using the rudder pedals more than the stick to align with the runway.

Thats a interesting observation about using the rudder more and as we all know that is exactly what you should be doing. I don't have much in-between the leg stick time for about 30 years as most of mine was in gliders and I have to say it always felt better with the in-between legs stick

 

Mark

 

 

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So how would all that fit in with the flap control mechanism mount on the left floor and the connecting rod coming though where the left side stick mounts.

 

May need to change to electric motor actuator or a lever mounted to the cabin roof in the middle.

 

Just a thought.

 

JimG

 

 

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Geoff the guy in the USA did put electric flaps on but my flap lever is different. I modified mine so it does not come back as far. My full flap position is roughly in the same place that everyone elses is in the first stage position so it would not foul that. I was speaking with Danny L yesterday he has a spare control rod and pivot so I am going to get those from him and make up a dummy system to swap out and make up first just a simple stick assembly the same as Ken from Kilcoy has done I posted some pics but mine can come across much further due to my flap lever being different. That way I can easily try the new stick position. If it works out ZI will just make a removeable stick so you can either centre of between the legs stick...

 

 

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Danny Leach gave me a savannah control column and the front bracket so I sat down and thought about doing something to see if the centre stick was going to work for me. So I will try Kens idea first although my stick will be more in the centre of my legs where his is offset to the right due to his flap lever. I will make the sticks removable with the quick pins that are used on the 701 dual stick video. So basically I formed another stainless steel housing to make a nice slip in fit for inch and 1/8 tubing so my angled stick can just be fitted easily and it is tig welded to the original bracket this way I am not changing anything from original . This way I can use single stick either in the back or even the new front socket but the angled new version of the stick will be made to only fit the new front socket

 

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Probably not helpful to the discussion...but I always felt the standard control layout in the Savanah was one of it's most redeeming features.

 

 

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Got my 6061 IMG_1919_1.jpg.d6ff76aac9ff020395e66337463d51e9.jpg T6 solid rod on friday finally had a chance to turn up the 2 new plugs that go into the front control plate for the new sticks. I have a plate bent to take another stick at the front of the original and this is fig welded to the original you can see it in the photos. The new control sticks will be made from thin walled stainless steel tube I have a test piece you can see it slipped over. The outer size is 28.7mm and the plug part is 26.3mm that the stainless tube slips nicely over. The holes in the middle of both are for the PTT wiring. The new plugs are around 120mm long the wider section is tapped and threaded and are held in by ss bolts then you slip which stick you want over either the front or the rear plug. The in between leg stick is set for the front section as I need a little room for the movement of the right angle stick. If you want to use the centre control you can use either front or back plug. I may well experiment with a new shaped centre stick as well so when no pax I can still use it and have room for my knees or I could bend a new one that comes right over to in between my legs and use it that way but you could not take a pax with that, The pics hopefully will show you what I am trying to do. it will become clearer once I get the new sticks made. The front stick position the new tube actually fits down inside the front bracket about 30mm so its held captive there and lets it have more purchase. Of course I will have a quick release pin in both

 

Mark

 

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I am pretty sure it should fit inside the boot. It is at the stage now I need to take it to the aircraft and check rotating angles and spacings and the length. I am pretty happy with it all so far. This section will run under my right leg and the actual vertical stick that I hold will be the next addition556283948_photo1_2.jpg.a626cb1356b975e77b9f2b5c15293bf2.jpg

 

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Well I gave up on my between the legs stick design. I could not just get it to work the way I wanted it to. So I bit the bullet and ordered a dual stick package from Aerokits but WITHOUT the electric flaps. I hate elec flaps. You may remember I made new plates for my flap control to change the angle of the stick and it has been great but this allows my flap control to be quite a way forward from the original position at full flap. The dual stick kit arrived and I spent this weekend installing it. Its not finished yet as I am making removable sticks to make it easy to get in and out. The control system is a bit spooky but it certainly works well. It seems the mechanical advantage will make the airline travel on the stick itself a little shorter than the centre stick so they will be more sensitive. The elevator movement is quite substantial and at full back stick the stick is sitting on my big fat guts so will make a modified stick shape. My new sticks because they are removable will be made from thin walled stainless tube its the same size at the chrome moly sticks supplied. I will use the quick release pins for the sticks. As far as fouling the flaps only at full down elevator and full left aileron the control stick just fouls the top of the flap lever when at full flap...I basically never use full flap but when I reshape the stick to stop it being into my stomach that will then totally miss the flap lever. I did have to take a small section of about 5 mm out of the flap bracket so the pilots stick at the bottom did not foul the bracket.

 

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Trial seating in the plane now and making broom broom noises it feels extremely comfortable so this should allow me the extra comfort and I can no move around in the seat with ease.

 

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That seems like quite a bit of extra work! But, if it stops painful trips, it will be well worth it.

 

When do you think your Sav will be back in the air?

 

 

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I spent friday,sat and sunday working on getting it all in. Had to pull up the seats remount my battery isolator install support gussets inside under the seats then of course work out where everything fits as the instructions are good on the pictures but terrible on the English. I am going to the farm this thursday night for the weekend to finish fixing the lift the mrs broke and run power over to the new hangar so wont get a chance to do much more on it. All I have to do is to fit the pax side stick removal base piece then put that fulcrum back in and then get the sticks bent how I want them and of course fit the ptt buttons to both sticks then its ready. I would think the following weekend I will fly her after I finish those things. That should be done on the Friday. I just hope the weather is fine.

 

I got in and tried it out yesterday making the appropriate noises and it is really very comfortable and I now don't seem to have to use the special foam shaped cushion I made up to try to alleviate the pain issue I was having. this then also gives me better head height at the roof

 

 

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My only observation would be penny washers are needed for the rod ends (including the vertical link) and the bolts on rotating joints should have castle nuts with cotters.. but you probably have all that figured anyway ...?

 

 

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The kit is supplied with nylocks for most the only castellated nut is for the elevator connection at the bottom. All ball links have these special really thin washers that go against the ball side so they can rotate freely around the rod. The stick ends have just spacers to the balls in the rods but not a lot of movement there so its fine. The unit actually has been well engineered as all the main pivots have special plates with bearings inside and they are spaced with washers. Its a pretty reasonable unit

 

 

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The kit is supplied with nylocks for most the only castellated nut is for the elevator connection at the bottom. All ball links have these special really thin washers that go against the ball side so they can rotate freely around the rod. The stick ends have just spacers to the balls in the rods but not a lot of movement there so its fine. The unit actually has been well engineered as all the main pivots have special plates with bearings inside and they are spaced with washers. Its a pretty reasonable unit

If it's made by ICP, I think it should be good. After all, they now have quite a reputation to uphold. There must be hundreds of Savannahs flying about and I don't think they would want to lose any due to a poorly constructed dual stick arrangement.

 

 

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I did some measuring with cardboard and niko pen on the way home yesterday to look at the shape I need for my new pilots control stick. I had drawn it up last night and bought it into work today so the gun welder here could tig it for me. Its only got tacks on it to confirm angles and dimensions which I will do on the way home today. I have left it long where it goes over the coupling at the bottom and also long at the top so will see how it all turns out later today. It is made from exactly the same size tube that came in the kit which was chrome moly but as you can see mine is stainless steel but really thin wall. It weighs about the same anyway

 

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I went to the sav this arvo on the way home to trial fit the stick. I left the top and bottom long to trim it to the right length. Its almost perfect so this stick will be used for the pax and the next one I will do tomorrow will be spot on. I just need to change the bottom section angle to slightly less thats the sort end in the picture. It clears the flap lever at full flap with full down elevator which is the wort case scenario. The lower angle will stop that right angle from almost pressing on jim and the twins it should just be enough to provide the necessary clearance. The actual stick at the grip feels great in its position for level flight also just a great height for comfort. I will take some pics tomorrow with the new improved stick

 

 

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That interesting shaped stick reminds me of when I fitted a Toyota Celica 5 speed gearbox in my HR Holden with a bench seat. To have a 5 on the floor (and keep the bench seat) I had to make a gear stick with some interesting bends, not unlike your one! 003_cheezy_grin.gif.c5a94fc2937f61b556d8146a1bc97ef8.gif

 

 

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