Birdseye Posted January 8, 2015 Author Share Posted January 8, 2015 UPDATE Well I've marked up a little over a dozen hours now, two more than my first solo back in 1978. Covered off a number of exercises, including PFLs (can't see the fuss with engine failures after having flown gliders). Maybe I should buy a Jabiru after all :-) The snag is that I can't get consistency in my landings. Whilst I like the performance of the Foxbat, especially the short field performance, I'm increasingly getting frustrated by the centre stick and the rudder characteristics. Has anyone found the same, as I'm now seriously considering looking at other aircraft? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoxFat Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Hi Birdseye, We met at WGF last Friday and I must apologise I didn't immediately make the connection between you and your on-line persona ! I hestitate to say anything about "consistency of landings" in the Foxbat because (a) I certainly cannot provide any input that Gordon hasn't already (or will) provide (b) I'm not entirely sure what "consistent" means. I just did my plane registration renewal and noted that I had done 123 landings in the last year and I suppose I did 10 or so more with Gordon before I bought it. Consistent ??? Errr...no...probably not ! I haven't broken anything yet (but will apply the ruler to the landing gear legs after the delicate operation I observed at WGF) and I feel reasonably confident of making a safe, if not always elegant, arrival these days. Like you, I come from a GA background (but didn't have the benefit of gliders in between) and probably feel more comfortable with the firm and solid arrivals one gets with Cessnas, Pipers and Beeches (and Sons of Beeches ??). I do not really expect the level of consistency achievable in such planes to apply to the Foxbat, since it is much more a case of negotiating with the wind rather than pushing through it. I started on Jabirus when converting to RA and found much the same issues there (also Y or rather "U" stick) so I don't think it's peculiar to the Foxbat. For the first 10 or so hours in RA aircraft I felt like a complete doofus and like I had never learned to fly at all. One thing though - the unimpeded view forward and down in the Foxbat means that you see much more when arriving than you do in a GA plane (especially the C172s, 182s etc where the high panel blocks everything ahead after the flare). I have a sneaking suspicion that some of my nice GA arrivals, although they felt OK, wouldn't have looked nearly so nice if I could have seen so clearly where the ground was and how straight the aeroplane was tracking. By the way, if you haven't already done so, suggest you go to the Foxbat Australia website www.foxbat.com.au and look at some of the videos - there are some nice ones on short field landings, sideslip over obstacles etc. You will note from those too that there isn't much of a hold-off going on. They are filmed at Tyabb, which coincidentally is where I first went solo in a C150 also in 1978, and it's a narrow strip with a more or less permanent crosswind. It doesn't make sense to hold-off there..nose up sure but let the plane settle early and avoid the drift and that's how I do it a lot in the Foxbat now too. It also helps not to use flaps...it doesn't really need them and the behaviour is a bit more "Cessna-like" without them. 50 kts on short final is fine with no flaps and then get the power off and nose up and things happen quite sedately. So that's my perspective - would be interested to hear those of other Foxbat owners (if any are watching this thread ?). Cheers, AM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverWing Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Hi Birdseye - Peter at Foxbat here. As a GA pilot, you might prefer the twin control yokes and centre T-throttle/brakes option on the Foxbat. The yokes are geared slightly differently from the Y-stick and as a result, the aircraft feels a bit more 'solid'. Pilots from an ultralight/recreational background seem to like the Y-stick better. Currently, the proportion of Foxbats ordered with sticks or yokes is about 50:50. Hope that's helpful - give me a call if you need to chat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdseye Posted January 9, 2015 Author Share Posted January 9, 2015 Thanks Andrew and Peter. It raises an interesting point about entry path and preference for controls. Its not so much as the feel in my case, more the actual ergos, which may be exagerrated by having the seat fully forward to suit my stumpy legs. I actually prefer a conventional stick over a yoke and even found the left mounted Airbus stick OK when I had a simulator 'ride' some years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoxFat Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 Thanks Andrew and Peter. It raises an interesting point about entry path and preference for controls. Its not so much as the feel in my case, more the actual ergos, which may be exagerrated by having the seat fully forward to suit my stumpy legs. I actually prefer a conventional stick over a yoke and even found the left mounted Airbus stick OK when I had a simulator 'ride' some years ago. Ah yes - the ergonomics ! I recall one embarassing time when first in a Jab out of Cessnas when, in a moment of information overload I found myself flying with arms crossed, left hand on the centre stick and right hand on the left panel mounted throttle ! I still recall the look on my instructors face..... Fortunately it's difficult to do that in the stick version Foxbat unless one is a candidate for circus employment :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdseye Posted January 9, 2015 Author Share Posted January 9, 2015 You should have seen Gordon's face when he was demo-ing a forced landing with no restart and asked me (as the pretend pax) to turn off the fuel. So I did (ROFL). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Perry Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 I had the opportunity to fly the first Foxbat built in the UK, ( the importers were using our field as a base of ops, coincidentally one of the 3 musketeers involved in this venture as also named Gordon ! ) Having been jumping in and out of all sorts of aircraft at that site, I didn't find anyting odd about the "Flare" bit at the end of each flight, it felt very well sorted, especially if trimmed appropriately ( ! ) what I DID notice was that Foxy was quite a "Slippery" airframe when transiting from cruise to circuit, and the speed could easily slide up the scale if you didn't trim correctly ALL the time. . . . this was very important as our airfield, in the scheme of things is a bit on the "Bijou" side,. . ie rather small ! If the speed wasn't nailed on the very short downwind leg, then it was too late to sort it on base and final, which on most of our runways is more like a "Binal" ie, not enough space to permit definite straight bits for base and final. So I found that initially I was having to sideslip off the unwanted height ( laziness ) whilst trying to get the speed back to something which would make the thing cease flying at the appropriate height without running out of strip and having to over-use the brakes. . . . Most UK microlight aircraft were fairly draggy things, and this was not an issue with Rans, Kitfox, AX 2000, X'Air etc. . . . but it certainly was with the Foxbat. Still, it soon sorts out lazy pilots ( ! ) and it didn't take long to get the hang of the electric trim, and USING IT in good time. Still don't like the door sill mounted throttles though. . . but that's just personal ergonomic preference I guess. ( As well as my oft mentioned serious sartorial damage caused by ripping the 'Arris out of about eight pairs of shorts whilst sliding my sylph like frame out of the office. . . ) I'd still buy one tomorrow, if I wasn't saving for a Sportstar ( ! ) Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdseye Posted January 9, 2015 Author Share Posted January 9, 2015 As I mentioned above, I do like the general performance of the aircraft and concur that precision in flying is rewarded. With thermal gusts and falls it pays to watch closely the ASI on final. Plenty of tactile and audible feedback if the speed gets too low, but takes some effort if it gets too high! The Sportstar? Yes, that has caught my attention. Peter must have an eye for good aircraft as I believe he also used to be the agent for those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Perry Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 When the Foxbat import business was sold off, one of the guys went to either South Africa, or Australia I believe, and there was talk of him being an agent in his own right. . . . I wonder if it is your friend Peter ?? ( I never knew his name ) it was quite a long time ago. . . be one of life's coincidences if it is,. . .next time you see him, perhaps you might ask if he's heard of a guy named Gordon Faulkner, one of the original importers and our CFI at the time. Just as an aside,. the original Foxbat, ( UK 001 - G-FBAT ) is still based at our site and flies every weekend. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverWing Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 When the Foxbat import business was sold off, one of the guys went to either South Africa, or Australia I believe, and there was talk of him being an agent in his own right. . . . I wonder if it is your friend Peter ?? ( I never knew his name ) it was quite a long time ago. . . be one of life's coincidences if it is,. . .next time you see him, perhaps you might ask if he's heard of a guy named Gordon Faulkner, one of the original importers and our CFI at the time.Just as an aside,. the original Foxbat, ( UK 001 - G-FBAT ) is still based at our site and flies every weekend. Phil Hi Phil - yes, I, Peter, am the Foxbat agent in Australia, since late 2001. I bought my original Foxbat - serial 030/UK 003 (originally G-XBAT, then VH-VPH, now 28-4163) - through Gordon Faulkner (whatever happened to him, by the way?). I was never part of Gordon's business and I am aware that Ray Everitt at Dragon Aviation took over from him quite a while ago. Mine was the third one Gordon sold in UK, which I brought to Australia in mid-2002, and it is still flying, somewhere in outback New South Wales. Since then, I have sold over 135 A22 aircraft in Australia, including 2 kits and 2 amphibs. Also about 6 others in New Zealand, Indonesia and Philippines. In the early days, the 450 kgs gross weight limit was a real obstacle but since the introduction of the 600 kgs LS version in 2009, sales have been strong. I also used to handle the Evektor SportStar (a heavier, LSA version of the Eurostar) and there are around 55 of these in Australia. It's a very good aircraft, thought by many aero engineers to be the best built of the LSA types. Unfortunately, I just did not have time to look after both Foxbats and SportStars, so parted with the SportStar agency a couple of years ago to concentrate on sales & service for my first aircraft love - the Foxbat. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Perry Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Rather than skew the thread too much Peter,. . .I'll PM you. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoxFat Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Have had the opportunity to do a few hours in a sportstar recently. Very nice, well balanced aeroplane. However, if I was buying a low wing ultralight in that class I would opt for an Alpi Pioneer 200 - significantly better performance with the same engine and was also quite a bit cheaper at the time I was looking. It handles beautifully too. I wanted a STOL, high wing so chose the Foxbat but I can tell you it was a near run thing after flying an Alpi ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdseye Posted January 13, 2015 Author Share Posted January 13, 2015 Just researched the Alpi, very interesting. The lower MTOW is offset somewhat by the lower empty weight, presumably that is as a result of the timber structure. I note that there are no comms/nav listed as standard, so that may explain in part the lower list price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoxFat Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 Hi Ian, The quote I got included the standard avionics and GST and it was still very good value. However, the A$ to Euro rate was very good value then - won't be as good now. One important factor in my choice was local support which was (and is) outstanding for the Foxbat from both Gordon and Peter. This really makes a difference to the whole experience of buying and running a plane. (I don't want to make invidious comparisons with another famous brand of RA aeroplane but you may draw your own conclusions). When I was looking there was no WA agent for the Alpi but now there is - Jim Rodgers based at Northam and Bindoon. Jim is also an instructor and an L2 and I'm sure could arrange a ride in an Alpi for you. It does get toasty under bubble canopies in WA and flying in high Summer is not really an option (but then turbulence makes it less pleasant in any plane ). Cheers BF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdseye Posted January 16, 2015 Author Share Posted January 16, 2015 Another thing worth considering. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdseye Posted February 17, 2015 Author Share Posted February 17, 2015 Well after a visit to look over the Sportstar a week or so ago, I went for a first ride today. A big plus that the BoM advance forecast of 39C and sunny was crap and the day turned out around low thirties, overcast with light winds and smooth air. Who could ask for more when trying a new ride for the first time? Not only that, but WA's busiest airfield was more like a morgue than a honeypot. First impressions on taxying out were reminiscent of the Foxbat; same firm rudder. However, without the doughnut golf buggy tyres and variable ground surfaces it wasn't at all bad. Then again on similar surfaces the Foxbat may have felt the same. Instantly the low wing visibility made me feel more comfortable, probably due to my earlier power and later glider flying. Had the sun been blazing down, I might have liked the Foxbat more, but the neat sunshade was available in the Sportstar if required. All the engine management stuff, run up etc. was quite natural. l liked the fuel selector which was reminiscent of the Cherokee. Still some venting issues to consider in its operation, but nice and easy to hand. Panel was close to the trad six pack which I loved and lay out was clear and switches/controls were easy to hand. I'm by no means a luddite and in fact many class me a a techno and lover of gadgets, but I don't easily relate to the low end glass screens that seem to be the vogue. I've used high end EFIS/HSI setups and like those, but these pretty terrain projections etc. really do turn me off due to their ability to distract. Just Too much encouragement to young players to look inside the cockpit. TCAS is great, but not for VFR flyers to rely upon. The flying? Well I enjoyed the conventionally placed stick and other controls. The electric trim responded quickly and I didn't spend so much time waiting for it to catch up. The down side? It happened quicker than expected, but I don't see that as an issue. Otherwise the aeroplane was nicely balanced, easy to trim and gave good performance on its 912 ULS motor. Once practicing steeper turns the low wing massaged my comfort zone; a clear view into the turn gave me confidence that a high wing doesn't. Just personal preference? Maybe, but its something I felt many years ago switching between a Beagle Pup (say ahhhhhh, a lovely plane in fact much like the Sportstar) and a C150. Forward visibility was rather better, to the point where I had to check myself from drifting up due to the angle presented by the panel. On climb out only a small nudge was needed to check for a clear path ahead. So, how does somebody write something like this without upsetting somebody? Maybe not compare directly, just focus on the strengths of each? It would be nice to try a broader range of modern LSA aircraft, but with the incredible range that's just not practicable. My summary is that both the Foxbat and Sportstar are great aeroplanes, with small differences in their purpose and hence varied attraction to pilots. The Foxbat will get you down on a proverbial fag paper and nobody should ever fear a forced landing in one. Its a little unconventional in areas, that some, including myself may have a problem with. Most will I'm sure be more than happy. The Sportstar is another well built aeroplane, that will perform at the low end close to the Foxbat, possibly without the pin point short field performance. It suits more what I intend to use the aeroplane for and is better for no more than that. 10/10 for both! 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Perry Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Well balanced and very fair report that Sir. Wouldn't be surprised if the distributor asks to put it in his sales brochure ! ! ! It obviously flies more or less the same way as the EV97 Eurostar 450 Kg model we have here in the UK; . . .I had the same "Front view " syndrome when I started flying C-150s at Berwick, the forward view is so good compared to flying from the rear seat of the chipmunks I'd been used to prior to emigration to OZ. . . . Beagle Pup. . .that brings back a few memories too. . . . Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdseye Posted February 28, 2015 Author Share Posted February 28, 2015 Went up and bashed the circuit yesterday. Once again Jandakot not particularly busy, but it wasn't the best of times to be in the circuit. Mild crosswind and gusting to 23 kts or so, with the dunes short of 24L doing their bit to stir things up. Once again the lack of inertia with a VL aircraft made its presence known in the landing phase. The positive 'kick off drift and plant' of the Cherokee just isn't an option and work is needed right down to the touchdown. Must do more with the footrests in the gusty conditions, as I was allowing too much adverse yaw on the corrections. Broke out a good sweat in the hour and it was verging on hard work! Good fun and the conditions just ensure that you remain focused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birdseye Posted March 6, 2015 Author Share Posted March 6, 2015 My first big set back. Prior to flying in/out of Jandakot solo I have to get a Class 2 medical. Due to the continuing CASA ageist policy, I start out with a swag of 'demerits', which when tallied up with additional demerits due Type II (which I only knew about due to my getting regular health checks. Should have stayed fat, dumb and happy), means a renewal and a $400 ECG each year, pointless letters from my GP, opthamological tests and the most condescending of all; proof that I have atteneded a diabetes awareness course. Stuff them (CASA) and the boats they sailed over in! Edited by Moderator for use of offensive language Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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