Guest Maj Millard Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 Just had the opportunity to ferry a 100hp Savannah VG from Casino to Townsville NQ. The aircraft was purchased from, and built by Ian Ellis who is the NSW dealer. This was the first Savvy he built, and the first Savvy kit completed in Australia. Ians' work is first class and he is looking foward to now building a new XL savvy, which he figures should only take around four months. Savvy 19-4206 originally had slats with the old Leading edges, but before flying it back we removed those with Ians' help, and fitted the factory supplied new Leading edge kit with VGs. Also fitted were tundra tires, and full clear Lexan doors with a nice two pack paint job, plus the 150 ltr long range tanks. (pictures of 4206 available on one of Tomos recent posts, during my visit to Tomos' at Cecil Plains) After a great stay with the Casino Aero club, with all the help we needed, I departed shortly after 6am on Monday, and landed at Tomos at Cecil plains 1.8 hrs later. Then proceeded to Dingo Qld.,(East of Blackwater.) which took 3.3 hrs in fairly 'middle of the day' turbulant conditions. The following day saw me at Bruslee Station for lunch in 2.8 hrs, and then on to Townsville in another 1.2hrs. All up flight time being only 9.1 hrs for the whole trip. As a comparison I have previously done a similiar route in a Lightwing Sport 2000 in 9 hrs neat. The Savannah is a great combination of good high-speed efficient cruise performance, with safe slow speed handling once you slow it down (55-60kts) and get the first stage of flaps out. It then becomes a different beast, which will do just about anything for you, in either high, or cross winds, with the big tundra tires making the landing even easier. Hell, even Tomo could fly it !.When dropping flaps, both the flaps and ailerons droop similiar to the Caribou, and it feels very stable and safe, even in high winds on landing. Even though I am a great admirer of the Slepcev Storch and it's capabilities, the Savvy may just be a notch above it in the low speed handling area, and is certainly easier to land in high crosswinds. The Savvy fuel system has one of the greatest ideas I have ever seen in my 20+ years of flying ULs. There is a 10 ltr sump tank behind the seats that all the fuel flows through. When the level drops in this tank a red warning light comes on in the dash. You then have 10 Lts, or about 30 minutes before fuel exhaustion, ample time to find a place to set her down. With the 150 ltr long range tanks it is doubtfull you would ever need this feature, but what a great fuel guage. Theoretically you could take off in a Savvy with all fuel taps off, and still have ten liters available to the engine!!. About the only aircraft I've come across in which you can take off with all fuel off, and still survive !. (Don't recommend you try it though ) There is a separate fuel shut off on the floor, should you need to deny fuel to the engine, during an inflight emergency. This is a real SAFE fuel system, and I wonder why we didn't have it years ago. The red warning light has a push to test function also. The full view doors are a winner, and would be very handy for low level searches or property/cattle work. The Savvy at altitude, in smooth air, cooks along as well as anything I have flown, and I saw 80+ to mid 90 kt cruise speeds on the trip home. Unfortunatly because of the short, high-lift wing she become a bit of wild bucking donkey in real rough air, and you have to back off, and be satisfied with less speed, with a little less pounding. Mostly I ran on the outboard tanks (2 x 36 lts) and only touched the inboards (2 x 36 lts) for take-offs and landings. The VGs do work, and whilst doing some 'thermal riding' where often I was indicating a solid 1500 ft up, the VGs would 'buzz', indicating I was close to the stall. The prop fitted to 4206 was a Russian 'Kool" prop and seemed to do well, and was very smooth. The tundra tires didn't seem to slow the cruise speed as much as I expected they would, and certainly made up for any loss come landing time. The Savvy is well built and engineered, but unfortunatly few machines are perfect, and I did find the seats to be very uncomfortable. The angle of the back is too upright, and the curve down by ones' posterior is all wrong. This together with lack of any real 'grab' handles overhead, make it difficult to adjust your position without putting pressure onto the rudder pedal assemblies, which is not a good idea. Some real good cushions may have helped, but I had a real comfort problem after about 2.5 hrs in the saddle. Hopefully in the new XL model with the longer and wider fuselage, these easy to fix problems will have been sorted. I'm not ready to trade in the Lightwing just yet, but overall a real usefull and fun package that should have a great future, in this country and many others. :thumb_up: .................... Maj... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 Those full Lexan doors were a hit to me... just superb, you can see the ground right down past your leg out the side! :thumb_up: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 Hey just like a Drifter Tomo !................................. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 Hey just like a Drifter Tomo !................................. Yeah!:thumb_up: Almost............................ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glongrid Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 Nice report, Maj. Sure makes me feel better as I am about to take delivery of a VG XL next week in kit form. Will show your assessment to the "minister of finance". Your credentials as a "wing commander" may hold some sway. Regards, Gordo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 glongrid, Thanks, I'm glad you enjoyed the read. I am very objective and like to tell it like it is, and as I said, other than the seats, there wasn't a lot that I didn't like about the Savvy. The flying qualities are particulary impressive, and safe, and I haven't even fully explored full flap work yet. They would make a great trainer. Your a lucky man getting the XL kit. I believe they are an easy kit to build. Do consider full lexan doors, as they make the experience even better. Cheers Maj..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yenn Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 So you are very objectional Maj. I hadn't noticed. Maybe objective or even disruptive! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Cloudsuck Posted September 23, 2009 Share Posted September 23, 2009 Maj, I have read your Savanah report and agree that they are a mighty little aircraft (if not ugly as sin) but fast curise speed? Come on.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyingphot Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 Cloudsuck - colour me deeply offended. Savannah ugly - never!!!!! I will accept "somewhat agricultural" but never ugly. Every time I fly mine she becomes more beautiful. As to fast - what is fast. I moved from a Flightstar (cruise 55Kts ), in which I did about 400 hrs, to a classic Savannah (cruise 75Kts ) and thought that was fast. Sold that after 157 hrs and built current VG Savannah (cruise 87Kts) and have done 380 hrs in this one. I think 87Kts is fast when the same aircraft is still flying at 25Kts. This enables me to land on my 140 metre strip (or my 80 metre cross strip if I have a 10 Kts cross wind on the 'long' strip) and yet be able to complete a 17 day trip around Qld in comfort - a trip completed 10 days ago. Not really offended but it is all in the eye of the beholder Cheers Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Cloudsuck Posted September 24, 2009 Share Posted September 24, 2009 Cloudsuck - colour me deeply offended. Savannah ugly - never!!!!! I will accept "somewhat agricultural" but never ugly. Every time I fly mine she becomes more beautiful. As to fast - what is fast. I moved from a Flightstar (cruise 55Kts ), in which I did about 400 hrs, to a classic Savannah (cruise 75Kts ) and thought that was fast. Sold that after 157 hrs and built current VG Savannah (cruise 87Kts) and have done 380 hrs in this one. I think 87Kts is fast when the same aircraft is still flying at 25Kts. This enables me to land on my 140 metre strip (or my 80 metre cross strip if I have a 10 Kts cross wind on the 'long' strip) and yet be able to complete a 17 day trip around Qld in comfort - a trip completed 10 days ago. Not really offended but it is all in the eye of the beholder Cheers Bill G'day Bill, I agree with you, I think Savannah's are great. I could even own one as a second plane if ever I had my own very short strip and they do look better with big wheels on them. As far as speed goes, 87 kts is only 67 kts in a 20 kt headwind. But, a guy with a Drifter thinks a Tecnam is fast. A guy with an RV thinks a Tecnam is slow. Either way it is a matter of perspective. For me, 100 kts is the absolute minimum and I would like 160 ish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 Cloudsuck, Glad you enjoyed the report. Fast cruise speed ?...well you do have a point. But for an aircraft that is basically optimised for low speed flight, with a high lift wing, it's really not too bad. I did base my assessment on doing the same route in similiar conditions in other aircraft, IE: the Lightwing, and timewise there wasn't that much different, in your basic headwind/tailwind type day up here in Queensland. And I'm a bloke who has done 3 hour + cross country delivery flights in Slepcev Storches for 'chris sake !!. I do believe I know when I'm moving...or not!...And like flyingphot says, those of us who used to think 55kts was quick, 87kts is ..well....fast... Cheers Maj.......................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Cloudsuck Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 And I'm a bloke who has done 3 hour + cross country delivery flights in Slepcev Storches for 'chris sake !!. I do believe I know when I'm moving...or not!...And like flyingphot says, those of us who used to think 55kts was quick, 87kts is ..well....fast... Cheers Maj.......................... Hey Maj, we have a guy in our club who has a Storch. If he flys tail wind, he gets overtaken by hot air baloons. If you look real close you can see bug splats on the back where the bugs crash into the back of him Fun aircraft though and very strong. There are a couple of people at my club who have flown 503 wire Drifters to Avalon and back for the air show at 55 kts. Hard core pilots ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ozzie Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 I had several flys of Grahem Darr's Storch. it's stol performance and great low speed handling made it real fun. real taildragger stuff. Grahem is a parapeligic and he had it set up with hand controls. there were no pedals in the pilots seat and that made it tricky for an able bodied person not used to doing every thing with your hands. the only thing that worried me was how do you get out of the back seat fast if you were invovled in a prang. maybe carry boltcutters. As far as slow goes, try going somewhere in a Pilartus Porter there about the same Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 Well Ozzie, as you and I would recall, 35 kts was pretty quick in the Lazair on a good day !!!...........I don't know about those rear bug splats on the Storch though, I think our old mate Cloudsuck is trying to blow a bit of wind up our arsx, so to speak !!! .............................................................................. And Ozzie, I hear what you are saying about the rear seat of the Storch, I flew one of the early rag wing ones that only had an opening door on the right, and solid on the left, that got one to thinking about survival. You know, an old jumper always needs to have a way out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ozzie Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 No joke! i have been passed by a flock of pelicans when flying the lazair. If it went any slower i'd be going backwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Walter Buschor Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 I'm all the way with Bill - bias an'all. I built my Savannah in Bill's shed. I know that the Savvy IS BEAUTIFUL. Have to admit though that I overheard a conversation at Dunwich where a few pilots commented on the assembled Savannah's that they are so ugly only a mother could love them. Just goes to show - beauty is in the eye of the beholder. As far as speed is concerned an extra few knots don't make much difference since we all land and stretch our legs after 1.5 to 2.5 hours. The few minutes it takes to get there are worth it. As a bonus we "slow-pokes" get to log extra time in the logbook. And to all the Tecnam owners. I hope your planes have been factory corrosion proved.(our Savannah's are - and will be around a lot longer than some exxy imports ) I did see one that was not. We all know that even 6061 aluminium will corrode and it doesn't take long at all. fly safe - whatever you fly the grey Nomad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Cloudsuck Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 How is you Savvy factory corrosion profed Walter? I have a friend with a Savannah and it is plain old 6061. No corrosion proof from the factory or the builder. All Tecnams are 6061 and epoxy corrosion proffed. Smaller components like bulk heads are all dipped in anti corrosion vats and anodized before being stored in humidity controlled fridges until assembly. From the net. Once the part is proper formed, it most be anodized. Tecnam has a large facility with many tanks. A machine, as seen in the second picture, lowers the parts into the tank. Electricity is run through the tank causing the part to anodize. This helps with corrosion. * * The parts are then stored in a bin until they can be treated in the epoxy both. * * The epoxy both, as shown above, coats the entire part in an epoxy. The anodization and epoxy not only protect from corrosion but also great a bondable surface for paint. I was having a conversation with two Savannah owners at Inglewood this year. One pilot went on about how there is no need for a fast plane etc etc and in the next breath said, "We did a trip into the desert and had a huge tail wind all the way. We had 100kts ground speed all the way, it was great". ALL pilots want to go faster ... There are only two types of pilots, those who want to go faster and those who lie :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Walter Buschor Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 Hi Cloudsuck, You are correct when saying that the Savvy IS plain old 6061. It is however up to the builder to etchprime all parts before assembly. This effectively "corrosion proofs" the plane. I do consider it imprtant that the etchpriming is done BEFORE the assembly of the parts for best results. As to the Tecnam that I'd seen it had no etchpriming at all inside the fuse. Safe to say that the wing was the same. tecnam might well fully etchprime / undercoat their aircraft for a cost - I don't know. In the case of a homebuit the builder has the choice as to what extent he wishes to go to. As far as flying goes though the plane will fly just the same wether it looks like dog or like a princess. As far as speed is concerned it matters little how fast the plane goes ( in most cases ). What I did find though on my recent fly out west was that it matters a LOT how one can hold the bladder. I thought my bladder was going to explode and I was starting to look for somewhere to put down. I was however concerned how my bladder would fare if I had a bumpy landing. Thinking better of it I did make it to my destination and what followed was THE highlight of my trip. Lesson learned: always use every opportunity to relieve oneself before a flight and never drink lots before take-off. safe flying the grey Nomad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Cloudsuck Posted September 29, 2009 Share Posted September 29, 2009 G'day Walter, there are many ways to corrosion inhibit an aircraft, spraying green S*%t everywhere is one way but it also adds weight. If you hold a torch inside a Tecnam you will see the gold colour of the bulk heads (anodized). If you look at the internal skins, it looks like they are bare, however, when Installing my radio antenna I had to make sure there was a good ground plane so I rubbed the internal skin with a bit of wet and dry. I soon (after a bit of elbow grease) found that they are indeed coated with a fine grey (almost clear) coat. My friend who built his Savannah got some advice from Bill Whitney. Bill advised that unless the aircrift lives on the coast, and being built out of 6061, spraying etch all over the place is just adding weight. Photo of Tecnam anti corrosion tanks and other stuff attached. As you can see, not exactly a back yard operation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted September 30, 2009 Share Posted September 30, 2009 There are many great 2 pack Epoxy primers out there as the boat building faternity have found. Putting a finish coat straight onto alum will not stick, as many tinny owners have found out the hard way. You need a quality primer first, designed to go on Alum. 6061 ALCLAD as it is called, has a thin layer of corrosion proofing each side, which is actually a very thin coating of raw aluminum, hence the name ALCLAD. However when you cut it, or drill a hole in it, you expose the alloy (6061 or whatever) and then you are exposed to corrosion. This is where the alodining process come in, and after alodining the drilled or worked sheet or part, it is once again sealed, and corrosion proofed. Should you NOT do this, (or prime), and you say use a steel, or Stainless rivit, or even one of a greatly different alloy, you run a very good chance of getting 'dissimiliar metal corrosion" which is why you see a lot of planes around with corrosion starting around all the rivit heads. This is especially possible in coastal areas where moisture kicks off the 'battery' effect between the two disimiliar metals and caused corrosion. Even though a coating with a good quality 2 pack epoxy primer does add a small amount of weight, it is the best way, long term, of guaranteeing a non-corrosive structure. Alodining is also a recognized way in the industry of achieving the same thing..........the 'gold' colored sections on the yet to be painted Tecnams have been alodined. An alodined finish is technicly 'paint ready' but it will be primed all over with the rest of the aeroplane, and then top coated with the finish paint......Anodising and Alodining end up with a similar end results, however one is done electrically and the other chemically....The best alloy really is 2024-T3 and the best example of it's use is the DC-3, which uses that grade almost extensivly....................................................................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markendee Posted September 30, 2009 Share Posted September 30, 2009 Fellas, Fellas, Fellas, This started as a nice tribute to the wonderful little Savvy and has instead become a tribute to galvanic action. The Savannah is safe, robust, fun to fly, easy to build, cheap to build and fly and dare I say very good looking. Repeat good looking. I think so anyway. Loved your report Maj and totally agree the seats are our Achilles Heel. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted September 30, 2009 Share Posted September 30, 2009 Thanks Markendee, Hey I liked the Savvy too, and believe me if I didn't, I would have said so. It's a pity about the seats, but I see it as an item that is fairly easy to fix. Did some time in my Lightwing with daughter on the weekend, and Howie did get the seats right !!................................................................................ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Walter Buschor Posted September 30, 2009 Share Posted September 30, 2009 Hi Cloudsuck, good pictures from the Technam factory. Just goes to show that they apply "grey stuff" most likely etch-primer to theirs. ( the one I saw at Caboolture was shiny aluminium though ) . Undercoat will add weight but lets say you're in the market for a used aircraft of similar age and condition - one is etchprimed all over and the other one isn't. which one would you choose ? all else being equal. The extra 10kg's or so are worth it for piece of mind. ICP ( Savannah ) claims - amongst others -that 6061 does not need to be treated as it is corrosion proof. I would like to see one of these planes 10 years later . Still think that unless they are treated with lots of TLC they will never make the age of our "beloved" Cessnas due to the fact that the metal is so thin and it takes little to eat a hole into it. safe flying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted October 1, 2009 Share Posted October 1, 2009 I think the .016 on the lower wing skin is a little light. I think if I built one I would go .020 on lower wing skins, and possible Leading edges also. Especially considering that those skins are partially supporting 72 Lts of fuel in the long range tanks version. Besides I like the bottom of my wings to be flat not wrinkled........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcamp Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 I think if I built one I would go .020 on lower wing skins, and possible Leading edges also: Probably unwise to change the thickness of the skin without knowing exactly how that will affect the overall stress distribution in the wing especially with regard to aeroelasticity. Having said that I have seen the stress analysis for the Pegasus wing (an aftermarket wing for the 701, similar concept to the Savannah ADV wing) and IIRC it didn't pay any attention to this (It also assumed even spanwise load distribution for a strutted wing). Just shows what you can get away with sometimes. On corrosion the 2000 series (eg 2014) are about the worst of the aluminium alloys (has to do with the electrochemical potential of the intermetallic compunds produced by age hardening) and really has to be alclad. This was recognised pre WWI (Dural) and gives a lot better result with the sort of skin thickness used in a DC3 than with the skin thickness used in RAA type aircraft. 6000 series (eg 6061) are much better where salt water is involved (different intermetallics) and is usually not alclad in thin sheets (not sure about the Savannah but see what Aircraft Spruce sells). For strength they generally have to be precipitation hardened at elevated temperature (T6) rather than just age hardened at room temperature (T3) Then there is the 7000 series stronger than either 2000 or 6000 but their own set of problems. Alloy selection is a bit like aircraft design - a whole heap of compromises in close formation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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