Viper

Than

Bummer Craig :( wish I spare 28 grand

no it

I had a look at it in the hangar, about a month ago, its not that bad guys. Unfortunate, but these things happen. I didn't have a real good look but the Spar looked ok.

I had a look at it in the hangar, about a month ago, its not that bad guys. Unfortunate, but these things happen. I didn't have a real good look but the Spar looked ok.

Well sadley our plane is kaput on the first flight after test flying on taxing the wing caught the side of a parked car , the throttle was pushed in full power instead of off and the plane pivoted around the front of the car and the other wing hit another car on the other side and bent and crushed the wing the engine and prop was left spinning full power between the two cars undamaged

Garath has been curled up in a ball for 6 weeks #$@ off with himself but he is now up and ready to fly again we can not bring ourselves to rebuild the plane to bumed out ,even though all it needs is a wing so we are going to sell it as is , so if anyone would like to buy it we would like $ 28000 for it , keeping in mind that the engine alone is worth $ 33000

You can see what we did during the build so there is no secrets so if anyone wants a bargain let me know

Cheers Craig

On the bottom of the pile on photo 18 it looks like the rudder to me. It looks like where the skins are riveted to the tapered tube. I'm constructing one of these so the investigation will be of great interest. Indeed I won't fly it until there is some real information available on this incident.

garaths just loading them off the go pro so should be up soon

Well finally the plane is in the air after 2 years of hard work and frustration. The test pilot did a full inspection of air frame and controls all good said ill do a few taxis and then go from there , he taxied out and did two fast runs back and forth then on the second run he took off much to Garaths and my surprise , he then flew around for about a hour doing stalls /steep turns etc and put the plane through its paces he then landed without a drama and taxied to the hanger climbed out and made a couple of suggestions that we would need to adjust as he was having to hold a little right aileron in straight and level and probably will need a small trim tab on the rudder as the plane plane required a little to much right rudder , But all in all he was very happy with the way it flew .It was such a good feeling seeing something you have put so much effort into fly straight off, as what is essentially a home built plane by two people who have never done this before. Credit to Garath for putting up with me during the process along with his hard work and commitment , also credit to Garry Morgan Morgan Aeroworks for designing the plane and his help and advice. Now just to fly off our hours and enjoy

For all of you who are interested how the UL engine went all i can say is what a rocket climb out awesome, speed awesome and so smooth , the test pilot commented on the power and smoothness of the engine, so so far so good. will keep you posted

Thanks to all for the interest in our build

Craig

The Tecnam engine that failed at Boonah was not due to the engine malfunctioning I can assure you - and I will leave it at that -.{Moderated}

You have both had your say and that is the end of it in this thread. Take it to PM. - Mod xox

I see the lower cowl is attached to nose bowl ,bad move as you will need to remove prop to service engine,have modified several cowls to overcome this oversightMick W

cheers Craig

It might pay to have a read about trim systems....Here's a start;

http://www.homebuiltairplanes.com/forums/aircraft-design-aerodynamics-new-technology/14961-stabilator-trim.html

Yes we have read that on servo and anti servo trim system , our trim system is set up such that the trim tab moves independently of the elevator as such the elevator can move through its full range of movement without altering the position of the trim tab relative to the elevator , the trim tab is controled with a ray allen servo and is controled with trim adjust in the cockpit

cheers Craig

I know it's not hugely relevant but it's spelt TECnam. There's no H

This is really great to be getting some solid information about a recent failure. I'd like to thank Swanny particularly for getting this going, please post anything more you hear about.Maj, I know where you're coming from and you'll probably remember from another thread that I'm fitting a new 912 right now so I've been talking with Flood's guys and all that. I'll re-read the manual tomorrow but I'm pretty certain that cranking open circuit only has to do with potentially damaging the Rectifier/Regulator and that is why it needs to be protected by a bloody big capacitor. I may be wrong but I'll check for sure tomorrow.

 

Viper - you're probably not aware of it but you may know much more than we've heard about. When this failure happened what were you doing (flightwise)? How high? What throttle setting? Straight and level or rubbernecking at the dam? Had you been scanning your instruments? Any unusual temps or pressures? Did the engine stop suddenly or run rough first then stopped after throttle position changes? Did it rev up before stopping suddenly? All those details, and any more that you can think of will allow others who've had any similar experiences to help with the diagnosis. No-one is pointing fingers, you got down safe so that's what matters but hard facts may be the only thing that will allow this to be worked out.

 

If there is any way that mis-handling during servicing or whatever could possibly cause a double ignition failure that only manifests later, to happen, then we've got a real problem... And what history of similar occurrences is there? Do RAA compile any of this if they do hear about it? Has anyone asked Flood?

 

Also, none of this CDI ignition stuff is rocket science, every motorcycle's been using it for decades so there are hundreds of experienced people out there who would know what might have been the cause.

v

Cranking the engine over with the spark plugs out, with IGN switches in the ON position, will zap the boxes. (plugs not grounded) Not a recommended proceedure. If the start switch is the multi positional key type, it is almost impossible to crank the engine over without also turning the IGN circuts on. Even cranking over with only one set of plugs out on each cylinder, will do it.If the plugs are removed, they must be inserted back into the plug cap, and grounded positivly back to the case using either aligator clip leads or lockwire.This mistake is often made during a compression check, or when cranking the engine to check for oil pressure following an oil-change.....The ignition boxes also need a positive ground to operate correctly, without that damage could occur...As mentioned by Ultralights it would be highly unlikely both would just fail together in flight...This is by the way the type of failure reporting we need after an incident., it was initially thought or suggested that carb-ice may have been the culprit in this incident.................................Maj...

Hi everyone it turns out that the engine failure of the rotax 912 in the technam I was flying was a dual CDI failure at the same time does anyone know if this is possible and why

Tha

Hi Viper you did we'll to walk away from that. I had a look at the wreck and the cockpit was well intact.the floor held up well after loosing the undercarriage. They tried to start the motor no go so L2 arrived also a LAME ,they checked timing and other things no go then replaced both CDI units one try and it burst into life. L2 said he has had some CDI fail of late . Can I say keep an on the rev drop when checking Magneto it may be your only indication something is wrong.

Ah, no, you have been helpful! If he removed the plug in regard of checking the timing it would be the valve timing he was referring to, as to whether it had got affected by the prop strike, so that explains the comment.In terms of two CDI failures at once, well that's extremely unlikely I would think, it makes a mockery of having two ignition circuits, maybe we need three... Were the CDI units replaced one at a time and the engine tested after one was replaced? What's happening with the failed ones, is someone examining them? And which part of the CDI units was replaced, the parts mounted on the top of the engine or the senders on the back of the engine?

Ok thanks for clarifying. Seems that some of the early posts may have been made in haste. Looking back now, with the benefit of time, what are your thoughts about the event, your in flight reactions and the benefit of some of the very experienced pilots whom have added their thoughts?

I was watching aircrash investigators last week. They implied that initial pilot reactions in an emergency are to select a suitable landing site, get the aircraft maneuvering towards that landing and if there is time, try a restart.Reading this incident quote, it doesn't seem to be in the right order.

 

What is the recommended procedure in pilot training?

The sequence of order of events was not written by me, and I can asure you that the landing site was chosen and the plane was in a glide before any communication was carried out.

It is also in the interests of everyone in the flying community that amateur built aircraft are as safe as they can be. There are too many home built aircraft where the kit or original design has been modified because the builder (usually a first time builder) thought it would be a good idea to beef something up or whatever forgetting the effect on weight & balance or that it is supposed to flex & beefing it up may in fact make it weaker. I once was an Injunear but I have learned an incredible amount in building my kit & to date the only modification is to make the tail fin & rudder about 100mm taller than the plan said. I can understand that building some of the "quick build" or join the dots sort of kits you would miss out on a huge amount of learning about technology, aerodynamics, design etc as all you are really doing is a final assembly.

Thats a interesting point of view , however there is a reason that they are called home builts { 51 % }, If you follow a recommened path knowing from your own vast manufacturing experience that the path you are taking is of very poor design and construction techniques then you are exposing yourself to unnessasary risk , And just because a manufacturer starts a company, designs a plane and starts selling them, in no way makes that manufacturer a expert or his product beyond design flaws . If you are the sort of builder who is incapable of assesing whether the technique or product you are build ing is wrong then maybe you should not be building a plane ,as all you are doing is blindly trusting someone else. and my recent experiences have taught me that the only person you can trust to do the right thing in your own personal flying is you

Thankyou all for your kind suportive words just what the doctor ordered . I think it will be a while before my daughter comes up again

the cock pit held up with only a small deformation jamming the left door We actually did not hit the tree very hard although it does not look like it most of the speed had been scrubbed off as we dropped off the embankment breaking the undercarriage hopefully see some of you at the next fly again thanks

The main problem is that as soon as the crash happened the aircraft belongs to the insurance company, and with out their permission no one can touch the aircraft.As no one was seriously hurt (I'm still amazed), the police and ATSB wont get involved. It will probably cost $2,000 plus for them to remove the aircraft, and they will be lucky to recover anything from the sale of the wreck.

 

Once the Insurance company have inspected the aircraft some of the club members plan to approach them to remove the aircraft at no cost to them (the Insurance Company) so we can inspect the aircraft and try to find out why it stopped.

 

Kiwi

I think that RA-Aus has some culture issues around this sort of thing Viper. From what I can understand and have read, the early days of ultralights was plagued with engine failures, and I believe that might be a member or two here who have had in excess of 20 or more engine failures during their time. Certainly if you read some of the US forums where they fly unlicensed, unregistered ultralights, things like engine failures are still quite commonplace.So the culture is to shrugg off these sorts of things. CASA doesn't want to really know about it, the ATSB hasn't the resources or interest in investigating, and RA-Aus probably neither the technical knowledge (although some specific people may have), funds (investigations can cost a lot of money) or perhaps even interest (already alluded to). The a/c owner is facing a loss of income until the insurance comes through and a suitable replacement can be found, probably an insurance excess and quite likely a rise in insurance premiums in the near future. And they probably aren't hugely keen to spend money trying to track down "why", when there is no return for that money spent. I feel your pain, but it seems that real investigations or outcomes from recreational aviation incidents are little more than a pipedream at the moment.

Glad that you are both ok.I was at the crash site on Sunday securing the aircraft with 4 others including John Mckeown (local Raaus rep and approved Raaus accident investigator.) I drained the remaining fuel out of the starboard wing and there was no evidence of water in the fuel.(I also filed up the ride on mower out of the same drum straight after Craig had filled 7200.)

 

Another club member was flying over the Dam 30 minutes earlier in his Jab and experienced carby ice, (high time pilot) so that is something that needs to be considered.

 

It will take quite a bit to recover the aircraft and while the insurance company might not be interested, Ian and the rest of our club plan to find out why the rotax stopped.

 

Google coordinators are 27 55 39S 152 47 37E Google earth shows only the northern half of the Wyaralong dam, so I have included a photo taken from the air not long after the crash. (The jab pilot and I went looking for the downed aircraft while Dave went by car). I have also included some photos taken from the ground.

 

 

 

 

Kiwi.

Thanks for all your help it was much appreciated at a terrifying time maybe carb icing could have been the reason

I spoke to Ian this morning and asked what sort of investigation would occur ,his words to me were that he had spoken to every relevant authority including RAAus and no one would be taking it further , he also said that no one would bother to spend the necessary cash to investigate and at no stage indicated to me that he would do otherwise actually indicated to quite the contrary ( quite Flippant } I do know Ian is a very experienced pilot 20000 hours I think and I have nothing but respect for him as a pilot but this morning his $#@ happens attitude to this was appalling.

I are not looking to find a scapegoat or blame anyone or in Ians words clutch at straws I just would like a explanation for my own self and for the safety of every pilot out there , surly this is nothing but due diligence

Viper,You did it perfectly, your here and you and your daughter are alive and that is all that matters, the plane is replaceable life isn't.

 

As for the CFI he can harp on why didn't you do this or why were you over there, fact of the matter is the fan stopped probably for a reason not linked to you.

 

Your survival instincts kicked in more so with your child with you, you might have bent the plane but who cares your alive and that is all that matters.

 

End of story.

 

Alf

Thanks for all the support it means alot as it is hard not to think you should have done it better ,

I never want to go through that again that was the worst thing ever