Squizzyhunter

Well up this way (SE QLD) it around $220-$250 average for the schools that come up in searches.... also a lot of the ones recommended here are in that bracket. Mainly Jabs and foxbats..... and the occasional Tecnam. As stated $ is a very crude metric but still needs to be taken into consideration

OK I am going to have a little bit of input here. I have been a bit reticent to add my bit because I actually Think that the original poster asked a question that in my opinion was not the correct question for someone wanting to learn to fly. Although he/she did allude to the correct question in the explanation.

What is the best value RA-Aus training in $ per hour Dual? Now although I understand the reason for the question I think it is irrelevant. Why?

 

Flight training is a combination of Skills based training with a large amount of theory. I am not going to go into percentages or how it should be balanced, there are people far more experienced than me who can do that far better than me. Having taught theory and practical in trades based topics for several years, below is my opinion and only my opinion and an insight into my thought process in selecting an FTF and reflections on my decision 6 months down the track. Remember 6 months ago I could identify an airplane and call it a Cessna 90% of the time. I now have just under 150 hours of which 1/3 is dual with about 7 different instructors.

 

Six months ago apart from a childhood dream and a 1 hour joyflight over Uluru in a Robinson R44, I had absolutely no light aircraft experience. I don't count the half a dozen parachuting flights that I did 35 years ago because I never actually landed in the plane in any of those. In short that joyflight as a 55 year old overweight (OK fat) man reignited my childhood dream to fly. So onto the net and do some research. In short at 127.00 kgs I was 20 kgs over the maximum seat weight for any of the affordable helicopters. I was also way to heavy for gliders in the places that I asked. That left me with fixed wing. Now in short RA-Aus provided the cheapest, quickest and simplest method of getting my fat a**e into the air.

 

OK so being a genius and armed with all the info from the internet I proceeded to go searching for an FTF. Well a couple of TIF's and several visits to different schools later here is a summary of what I found. There will be no names and no locations except for the one I finally decided on. Remember I was 127 kgs. I was willing to travel as far as I needed to get what I wanted. And I was willing to pay a fair market rate, although how I intended to calculate what that was with all my amazing lack of knowledge is still beyond me.

 

So to the TIF's and visits to FTF's. This really was probably the hardest part of learning to fly. From my background, SAFETY was without doubt my highest priority.

 

Secondly I love dogs, which means I am a social animal so atmosphere was my second priority.

 

Third at 127 kgs I had to fit in the plane.

 

Fourth it it wasn't going to be fun I wasn't going to stick it out most likely.

 

And lastly was a fair price and a time frame that fitted me. I was on a time limit at first but that fell away mid training and now I am certain that I shall never stop learning so a time frame was probably really the silliest thing that I considered.

 

I visited several schools over a large area. Below are some of my observations.

 

A TIF that in my opinion in hindsight took off with the aircraft well over MTOW. That is based on my estimation of the pilots weight and a fair guess at the amount of fuel on board. Only after much googling after the event did I come to this conclusion.

 

An instructor answering my question about my weight by saying mate if you can get in the seat we can teach you.

 

By this stage I had developed a series of questions that were a test of the FTF's methodology rather than a quest for knowledge. You see I had decided that there were people out there who just wanted my money.

 

An FTF that as I was walking towards their hanger a student(well I assume it was a student) who stormed past me shouting over their shoulder, I am paying you to teach me not to abuse me. Stick your bl**dy flying school.

 

You get the drift there were others that seemed to have the skills and methodology but not the atmosphere and vice versa.

 

Then I rode into CRA. I was on my bike dressed to ride and happened past the airfield so thought I would stop in. As it happens I probably picked the perfect day to drop in. So my initial question/test drew what to me was the perfect answer.

 

Q. I am 125kgs (i had lost a bit by now) can you teach me to fly?

 

A. From the bloke sitting casually in the corner who turned out to be the CFI, pointed out the window, in the plane with full tanks, that one over there with half tanks, this one with 30 litres, and the rest forget it. With that he wandered off to do a lesson or something.

 

The rest of the people were so welcoming showing me the planes sitting me in them all basically trying them on for size. Can you picture a 125 kg man in full bike gear and boots trying to fit into a couple of Jabs and the Foxbat. Well surprisingly the Foxbat did fit and not only that but she was the one that apparently could take me the CFI and a tank full of fuel.

 

Like I guess all students at this stage I wanted to know how long it would take to learn and how much. In hindsight they were the two silliest question that I think I asked. Looking back now the numbers in the book simply do not matter. they are just that. Numbers in a book. What matters is the quality of instruction.

 

The safety culture.

 

The variety of instructors as well as availability.

 

The availability of the aircraft as well as variety which did not become important to me until later.

 

The airfield and neighbouring airfields.

 

Were they able to work in with my timeframe. Was my timeframe realistic?

 

I can give you the figures straight from my log book but really they do not matter. What took me hours to master may take someone else minutes. On the other hand what took me minutes may take someone else hours.

 

OK so a summary.

 

My Solo came up in three weeks

 

My Pilots certificate in 8 weeks of which the school was closed for a couple of weeks.

 

My Pax endo a week later.

 

And my Xcountry a further 6 weeks of which the plane was off the road for 3 weeks.

 

During this period I was flying 3 to 4 days a week with 2 flights/lessons on most days. Luckily or then maybe not, this was in South East Qld during the best time of year. As with all things there are positives and negatives.

 

The positives of getting in and getting it done.

 

I got into training/study mode very quickly and as a result found that revision time from one lesson to the next was minimal. I became very comfortable with the people and the equipment very quickly and as a result was confident in my training and learning. I got to know the airfield and the traffic patterns fairly well.

 

The negatives

 

I am still finding some of these. I thought that I had cross wind landings sorted. We did the theory and the practical, however there is was not that much wind during my training. I saw more wind in the last couple of weeks in the drifter than during my whole training.

 

I solo'd on a runway that I had never used before that day. During my test thanks to a simulated engine failure I used that runway for only the second time on a very windy downwind no engine forced landing. That was fun not. But then I guess if the fan stops it is not going to ask you if this would be a suitable spot for it to happen.

 

So YCAB for training. 4 runways. 12 and 30. 06 and 24 all grass with 30 being right hand circuits and probably about 25% of flying days using 30 so a fair variety. The two neighbouring airfields Caloundra and Redcliffe are both sealed so a bit of extra experience there. The training areas around Bribie island and the Glasshouse Mountains, it can't get much better than that. And we have some higher altitude fields within range during the Navs to give a feel for the effect of that as well.

 

In summary I feel that I received excellent value for money in a safe and friendly environment and am glad that I chose to learn where I did. To follow up they have a good range of aircraft to fly and for continuing training. Cost in Dollars per hour I think was invaluable but to put a figure on it from $170 to $200 depending on aircraft.

 

What would I do differently if I had the chance to do it all over again? I would probably chose to learn in a tailwheel. When I started I didn't even know what that was and certainly had no idea that it would be more difficult than a nose wheel. Remember I picked the Foxbat because it fitted me.

Fantastic post mate! I really do appreciate that. I really do know from my professional background that I will be asking all the wrong questions and just really dont know what I just dont know yet. I am going in blind so find it hard to assess the real value because of it. I have had glowing reports of guys that charge $150 and a lot of recommendations for the $250 plus guys. I think it will just be trial and error from here on in, as with you I usually assess by the generalised approach and perceived attention to detail, as I know nothing I would think I was getting a meticulous education regardless, as I don't have a decent benchmark or gold standard. I am happy that I have asked the wrong questions (sorry for the frustration though guys) as economics is still one facet of real value (especially trying to justify it to my finance minister) . As stated I dont know what I dont know so am starting with a familiar benchmark($) as didn't want to pay 75% more just for a shiny plane and decent marketing (seems to happen in all professions). In getting that out of the way I can move towards assessing other perhaps more important facets such as institutionalised safety culture, variety and social aspects. Unfortunately some things can be told and we can hear and and understand them cognitively yet without the experience it is very hard to give certain factors the same weighting as someone that has already been through it..... though I am trying.....it does make a FNG like me consider things that were formerly not even on the radar and I thank you greatly for it :-)

Class D in Sydney basin - Jabiru Flying School at Bankstown, CTA 24x7 (almost) and pretty cheap as well http://www.sydneyjabiru.com.au/aircraft/

There are 2 RAA schools at Coffs as well.

Who is charging $300 for a Jab?!?!? I can hire real aircraft for less than that ;)

Haha. True, although, im trying to lead by example...

So are you with South Coast Recreational Flying Club then?

..... best value & $ / hr dualby choosing $ 130 instead of $ 180 / hr dual does not mean you guaranteed of getting all the required value

 

I'd say the instructor / student relationship between each is probably more important than the $ number (your relationship with the instructor is more important than the other way round (not being an instructor but I guess this is true)) - the club activity can be important to some but not to others

 

I always have thought that when you learn - if things are not working out, it should be no big deal trying another instructor and seeing if things improve - you'll probably have a fair idea whether you getting value for money (irrespective of $) after a few hours dual (or any time really) ............ also after comparing notes with other students in other schools. You should not feel duty bound to stick with any school from go to woe

Thanks Johnm I couldn't agree more

Fly Now Redcliffe is the place to go! Mahl Oakes is the owner and CFI, he is a wonderful instructor and I have found as an older student he is very patient and gentle with me which is great, so if you want to great instructor close to Brisbane you couldn't do much better than giving Mahl a call.http://www.fly-now-redcliffe.com/

 

David

Much appreciated

I hire a Tecnam Golf from Airsport Qld at Boonah. Travel time is approx 1:15 from the Gold Coast. The CFI (ATPL) has 26 000 plus hours.

Yea, it swings both ways alright.. It looks like you already have "price" your willing to pay. There are a couple in that " bracket".Theres plenty of schools around up your way that will do a good job. But you may have to pay a realistic price.

I was planning to go the same way David. Four hours travel was going to make it a camp over job, but everything I had heard about John Walmsley was good. I ended up getting Bill Grieve from Aeroskill Flight Training because he was able to bring his flight school and Savannah aircraft to me so I could train off my own strip and sleep in my own bed. That allowed me more flexibility and I could still keep an eye on what was going on around my place while I was training. His rates were very competitive and didn't charge extra for ground briefings or exams.

I have only flown cessnas, pipers and lightwings and I like them. The only thing I needed to do was use my feet more. On a grass strip I keep the nose off also so that took a little getting used to. I am comfortable in them now and they have plenty of get up and go with the 100 hp Rotax. The bonus I found was 1 instructor who is the CFI. Back in my GA days I had 10 different instructors and only saw the CFI when I did my flight test. Search for me on Facebook - David Watherston and you can add me if you like for some photos. I can give you a link of a YouTube of me doing a circuit at coominya too once I edit it.Regards

 

David.

Hi Squizzyhunter,I converted from GA to RAA out at Coominya Flight Training. I travelled 1:15 minutes from home and I found it to be worth the travel. I usually did a session in the morning and had a break then another mid-morning.

 

The CFI does all instruction and is a very good teacher IMO. The CFI is John Walmsley and can be contacted on 0413 452 547. He operates 3 lightwings which includes a tail dragger. It is on a quiet strip with a few hangers where other private operators rent space. I just completed my Nav endorsement a couple of weeks ago and now hire his planes when I feel like a fly.

 

If you want any further info let me know and I will be happy to answer you. Tell him David sent you if you decide to give him a go.

 

Regards

 

David

I'll second David Rolfe and John Taru at the Oaks. Competent, practical and very good instructors. I also like them.But there will be other good flying schools - South Queensland seems to have a lot more going on than elsewhere, so you might be able to do better without travelling..

 

dodo

Hey there guys I have been scouring the forums over the last few months finding info on making my dollars go the further. I do understand that some people do skimp on quality just for low $ per Hr, However I do know that some fairly average operators are charging close to $300 Hr Dual in a Jab. So price does not always indicate quality. There are newbie instructors that charge top dollar as they have a great set up, business model and marketing yet there are some awesome and very experienced instructors that seem to still charge what they did in the early 90s. So PLEASE guys no lectures on you get what you pay for as it swings both ways.

What has been the best value RA-AUS trainers you have found (anywhere in Australia) = good instructors and decent hourly rates without paying heaps in hidden extras.

I am up on the Gold coast and don't mind travelling as I would camp out of my car for a few weeks to do initial pilots certificate.

So far for 2nd hand info the top of my list would be Daves flying school http://www.davesflyingschool.com/about.html

They are very cheap ($150 hr dual in a Jab 160) but most importantly I have only heard the utmost praise for the quality of training and for the guys out at the Oaks.

There is the Horsham flying club in Vic, Jab $140 Hr Training but have no reports on Training

http://www.horshamflyingclub.org.au/lsa_flight_training.htm

Any recommendations would be greatly apreciated

Cheers