Exadios

The video speaks for itself.The wreckage was found 3 years after the aircraft went missing. Unfortunately both occupants were killed.

It really highlights much of what we have been discussing on other threads. Note the engine was operating, it is clear case of stalling in the turn ie, stall horn sounding 3 times in the attempted 180 deg turn at low level (but high altitude)

 

Warning, its not a nice video.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfPr_gZzHRw&feature=player_embedded"

 

NTSB Identification: DEN84FA308 .

 

The docket is stored on NTSB microfiche number 25894.

 

Accident occurred Friday, August 10, 1984 in TABERNASH, CO

 

Probable Cause Approval Date: 12/14/1992

 

Aircraft: CESSNA L-19E, registration: N4584A

 

Injuries: 2 Fatal.

 

THE AIRPLANE DEPARTED GRANDBY 8/10/84 AND FAILED TO ARRIVE AT ITS DESTINATION. ON 8/23/87, IT WAS FOUND ON THE SLOPE OF A HIGH TREE-COVERED RIDGE. VIDEO TAPE RECOVERED FROM THE WRECKAGE PROVIDED A VISUAL AND AUDIO RECORD OF THE FLIGHT FROM TAKEOFF TO IMPACT. COMPARING THE RECORDING TO A TOPOGRAPHICAL MAP, THE FLIGHT WAS CLIMBING AND ITS ALTITUDE ABOVE THE GROUND WAS DECREASING WHEN IT CRASHED AT THE 10,200-FT LEVEL. DURING THE LAST FEW SECONDS OF THE TAPE, THE TERRAIN DOMINATED THE VIEW THROUGH THE COCKPIT WINDOW. THE PILOT MADE A 60-DEG BANK, AND THE STALL WARNING HORN COULD BE HEARD 3 TIMES DURING APRX 180 DEG OF TURN. THE AIRPLANE SUBSEQUENTLY STALLED, FLIPPED OVER, AND ENTERED THE TREES. THE DENSITY ALTITUDE WAS ABOUT 13,000 FT.

 

The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:

 

IN-FLIGHT PLANNING/DECISION..IMPROPER..PILOT IN COMMAND

 

AIRSPEED..NOT MAINTAINED..PILOT IN COMMAND

In Australia the pilot must be on oxygen at 10000' and greater. Some pilots go on oxygen at about 9000' if they are up there for some time (an hour or more). In addition density altitude affects lungs in the same way as it affect carburetors. So there is a definite possibility that the pilot's judgment was affected.

Looking at around frame 1048 I think I can see a lenticular. If this is so the aircraft may have been in rotor. These are one of the risks of flying at, or below a ridge line - on the wrong side. We nearly lost a Pawnee in one. The pilot recovered by putting the nose down to get some real speed and came out at about 500' AGL.

Excellent flying..........and ditto to the above statement..........God that was close.Exadios do you know the town/region where this vid was taken? My sister lives in Rome and it would be great to make contacts like this for some flying fun when I visit her.

Thanks for great vid and Cheers Alley

The text underneath the video (follow the link) is:

"Final glide in torino aeritalia , coppa città di torino gliding competition. ventus 2a LD"

That might give you a clue.

A final glide [media=vimeo]11745756[/media] from Italy. Turn down the audio - just annoying computer music.

[media=vimeo]11745756[/media]

Some schools that has been taught, i have been taught it, but im not current in it.The last i did it a few months ago in the Savage Cub, with a Intructor.Mainly because that particular A/c glides well.Turn back was at about 600 AGL.Heaps of time In that particular A/c to make the turn and line up.BUt it isnt going to be in every aircraft.It is good for experienced guys to practise it.Not students- my reason is that, if they are taught it, in a simulation and are successful, if it happens for real, and maybe they are 50 ft lower, its a very hot day etc.etc.They might have the mindset of , no problem i have been trained in this.So they start there turn, as the come around, they realise SH@#, i am a bit low, i am not around far enough to line up, so they pull back on the stick more to tighten the turn.Then it ends in tears. Stick position is the key as David has said, but im talking about low time pilots.I agree with Motz, i think its best, for them to land straight a head with in 30 degrees either side of their heading. When they have more experience in that particular A/c, then expand on that.90 degrees either side etc.

The point I'm trying to make is that a pilot should not go solo until he / she has demonstrated a successful dead stick turn back (and may other things for that matter).

With all due respect to the instructors (and I mean that sincerely - I couldn't do it), there is an element of "we musn't talk about it because the students will hear" creeping into the discussion. I'll admit to a problem with tailoring every response to the lowest common denominator - unfortunately all too often, sensible guidance to students somehow becomes adopted as an unbreakable rule of flight, only one step below Bernoulli, Coanda or whoever controls your aerodynamics. I saw a practical example of this; a 150 odd hour comm student suffered efato at a fairly large airport overseas. He did everything by the book, lowering the nose, scanning 30 degrees either side and elected to plonk the Warrior down in a grassy area off to the right. All well and good, except that there were drains and other nasties buried there and the Warrior got fairly buckled. The sad part was that, had his scan extended to about 80 degrees to the right, he would have noticed around 2,000m of lovely wide tarmac heading toward the horizon. Now I don't know about you but I would take a fairly dim view of even a 30 hour student who couldn't manage a 90 odd degree gliding turn at 450 - 500', followed by a deadstick on the remaining runway.What I'm trying to get at is the 30 degree "rule" is probably very necessary at first solo and a little beyond, but blinkered thinking like that really doesn't have a place in our dynamic and fluid environment once we have moved beyond the trainer wheel stage. I'll freely admit to being a low time pilot, but I have been very fortunate in having, at most stages of my learning, instructors who were prepared to allow me to think a bit outside the box and to get a real feel for what an aircraft can do. A turn back is perhaps an extreme example of this, but I don't believe that NEVER is an appropriate response.

Clearly thats what im trying to say. But practice gets old very quickly. Even old timers with tonnes of hours do the same thing.

So if, for arguments sake, you know that at a certain point it is possible to turn back at 500', ask the pilot what he / she would do first if the engine stopped. HE should say, "push the stick forward to maintain safe airspeed." Then cut the engine and have him do it - maybe 4 or 5 times. Then at some other time surprise him to see what he does. At some point it will become automatic - believe me.

Exo. You stated that 45-50 deg angle of bank is the "correct" angle in the circuit. You said nothing of practising. As i said before, steep turns are not the 'correct AOB turns in the circuit."

Plus I also fly gliders and 45 - 50 degrees is the normal bank in a thermal so it does not appear steep to me.

History has shown me that almost and i emphasise almost every pilot i pull the pin on upwind with, in training or testing holds the stick back for a few seconds while they 'come to grips' with whats happening. If you have made a successful turn back then it obviously worked for you. The problem is, that the guys it didnt work for aren't here to talk about it.

Exodius, I hafta dissagree there. 45-50 degree turns are NOT the correct AOB for cct turns. Indeed anything over 30 deg is considered a steep turn.

Well guys, quite simply, it kills people. Look at the stats. The reason we teach a decision altitude is because its simple, fast and easy. A controlled crash into hostile terrain is much more survivable than a vertical arrival.Its ok for all you guys with lots of experience to say, "well, why cant we just assess the distance out and the height and the wind and blah blah blah...how long do you think the average student or low time pilot is going to have to think about it, after they get over the initial shock of the band stopping?? By the time you even read half of the "ideas" on what we need to asses before deciding to turn back, the plane will be a smoking hole in the ground. Let alone putting it into practice after the engine has quit.

HISTORY has shown that turn backs are more often than not, fatal.

Your comment about experience highlights why it is important then the turn back landing is practiced often during training - because when it happens for real the pilot had better have some real options and the turn back is one of them.

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ii) It isn't something you are going to do lightly - steep gliding turns at low altitude are a relatively high risk manouevre,

 

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Of course 45 to 50 degrees is the correct bank at which to make all turns in the circuit so the pilot will be quite used to doing these turns.

Just remember - the stall speed increases at the square root of the wing loading [s&L] - SOME RA and SOME GA PPLs that I have met are not aware and this is importent when doing steep turns at low speed.Simply put the wing loading in a 60 degree turn is 2 so the stall speed increases by 1.414 - close enough to half for mental maths.

 

So a stall speed of 40kts S&L increases to 60 kts at 60 degree angle of bank - You can do your own maths about smaller angles of bank but important info to keep in the back of your mind.

 

I don't want to start an arguement but I think this is relevant info. if someone is not already aware of it.

 

Frank

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Why do we keep referencing the height above the terrain as the deciding factor? It is only one of the factors. The distance relative to the airfield at the height should be the first consideration, followed by wind speed and direction awareness; you haven't got much time to think, not many seconds delay will destroy the advantage of speed and height.

 

Just some things to consider.

 

David

I think there are to manly variables, in the question.It depends on alot.Density altitude, pilot experience in that particular a/c.Pilots experience in general,as mentioned above.I just want to remined people, is that flying level and crashing between two trees and taking the wings off, is safer than a turn gone wrong, and turning into a stall spin situation.IMOBut having said that, having it drummed into you that you cant look at alternatives more than 30 degrees either side of your flight path, can be detrimental as well, but not when learning or in experienced, turning back can and does kill people if they get it wrong..Each situation is different, i think.

that should not even be a question, you NEVER turn back, the chances of surviving if you turn back are very slim indeed, and quite a few very experienced pilots have been lost doing just that, land straight ahead, or 30 deg turn MAX, an aircraft can be rebuilt, or a new one bought..

I would not do it at less that 500' AGL or in more than about 5 knots of wind along the run way.

Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 15:38:46 +1100

From: Adam Webb <[email protected]>

Subject: [Aus-soaring] JOEYGLIDE SCHOLARSHIPS

Hi All,

The Australian Junior Gliding Club is proud to announce that we will be

offering two scholarships to pilots attending JoeyGlide this year, or

$250 each!

The scholarships are available to both pilots competing in the Australian

Junior National competition as well as pilots taking part in the two

seater coaching week being run along side the contest.

In order to qualify for the scholarships, pilots must be members of the

Australian Junior Gliding Club; must meet the entry criterion for the

comp or coaching week (or plan to have by the time of the comp); and must

also be willing to write a short piece after the comp for publication on

the AJGC website, and possibly in the Australian Soaring magasine.

Membership of the club is available at http://www.ajgc.org.au to all pilots of

any age.

Applications, detailing why you think you should be awarded the

scholarship, should be either emailed to [email protected] or posted to:

The Australian Junior Gliding Club,

7 Lomandra St,

O'Connor,

ACT 2602.

Applications close Friday 12th November.

Any questions, please contact myself on the above email address.

More information is available on the Australian Junior Gliding Club is on

our website at http://www.ajgc.org.au , and more info on JoeyGlide is at

The Internode Australian Junior Gliding Championships 2010 > home.

It would be appreciated if you could forward this information to any

members of your club not on this list whom you feel would be interested.

Regards,

Adam Webb

President

AJGC

In Australia the mean time of those pilots who crash with injury is about 2000 hours and the mean time of the total population of ag pilots who crash with injury is about 18000 hours.

The immediate cause.

Weather was not too good for this competition. Results here.

I have found this unofficial translation.

For those of you who are hanging out for some information about the L13 grounding here is an opinion from the factory. Unfortunately it in in Czech. Maybe someone on this board who speaks Czech can tell the rest of us what it says.

An interesting gliding blog -

Friendship Flight 2010: Morning Glory.

I would have to be convinced that having the wheel down would have made any difference to the outcome, in a positive way. It could be argued that the glider would stop quicker with it up, with stick forward. It would be a question of how effective the brake was, and whether operating the brake would have distracted his attention from the aim of hitting the posts with the wings and slowing down that way.

Taking the wings off evenly was always the technique that was recommended to me to use in rough country. ..Nev

A follow up article in which the pilot completely fails to address the central issue - i.e. how he forgot to put his wheel down! :)

Trust me there is only one thing that really, scares the sh*t out of me, and that's "the lines of death" as we call them, it is IMPOSSIBLE to see without the posts, there is one line near Ravenswood NQ, claimed the lives of 2 in a R22 about 15-20 years ago mustering, i was at the same property a couple of years ago, and one of the guys that was there that fatal day warned me about where it was, even when i knew where it was, you could not see it, situation is, one pole on 1 hill and about 2km away another pole on top of the next hill, in the middle it is about 250', right where you should be mustering, and even though i flew over the top of the pole and followed the line down about 50' away, i COMPLETELY lost it about 50' from the post, they just vanish.So if you fly low be very aware of the surroundings, and you get very spoilt in the NT, cause there is none out here, but its a real shock to the system flying home at 100' looking out the the side seeing a line of poles coming at you :ah_oh: