Ignition

I feel like one of the contributors to unintended stalls is literally the term 'stall speed' - people thinking they are safe just because they are flying above what they believe to be the 'stall speed' despite the fact you can stall a Jabiru/Cessna (take your pick) at 40kts and at 100kts.

But like... you can't stall if you don't exceed the critical angle of attack.

On 23/09/2021 at 9:03 AM, Flightrite said:

COST, everything boils down to cost! Manufacturing is all but dead in this country hence less & less work in that 'making things field' Add to that a LOT more other brain dead pursuits (technology does have it's negatives) & we are now breeding 'feed lot cattle kids' ever reliant on handouts & other support!

I'm glad  grew up in a world were there was opportunities for the taking such as trades.

It's a different world out there these days & not all for the better either!

Tl;dr
"Am I so out of touch? Hmm.. No it is the children who are wrong" - Seymour Skinner, 1994.

Like... wow.

I wasn't going to bother putting in my thoughts on this topic, but as a young person, I feel like I can speak for myself and my friends who have stopped flying to offer some actual perspective rather than this echo chamber which couldn't be more wrong.

I'll quote the 3 responses that got my attention, and then respond below them.

 

On 19/09/2021 at 11:11 AM, Soleair said:

I do not see the same level of early interest in flying that seemed prevalent in my day. The younger guys certainly have the money to fly (unless runaway house prices have taken all their money?), but the clubs seem exclusively populated by old farts of my generation, who usually like to talk about their flying stories. Very few youngsters from what I've seen.

 

21 hours ago, onetrack said:

the younger ones no longer have the manual skills or trade training to do things, such as build a kit plane.

Add in the constant impact of the Internet and electronic devices, coupled with instant gratification seeking (aided by that smooth and persistent marketing and sales), and the younger people want everything NOW, they want it NEW, and they want it delivered, ready to operate, out of a glitzy box.

 

16 hours ago, walrus said:

One track:

I think this is close to the mark. I have two stepsons. Both doing important jobs for six figure ++ salaries. One likes getting his hands dirty, the other mirrors Onetracks mates son. He works twelve hour plus days talking to everyone from houston to london, has the latest sports-car and his view of manual labor is “why? I make enough money per hour to buy new rather than take the time to learn to fix things”. His idea of aviation is seat 1A business class.

 

Given the pace and remuneration of his job that is understandable. What little free time he has is spent on me me me me behaviour.

These responses are perfect examples and part of the reason why young people like myself have a waning or very little interest in flying now.

The younger guys really do not have the cash to fly and it is honestly so frustrating to be constantly on the receiving end of comments like that from people who have no idea because their experiences were vastly different at our age.

Sure some of us are earning what sounds like a lot of money, but the cost of living, student debt (did they have $20-100k+ uni debts when you guys went to uni?) and rising costs of aviation, it's actually not affordable, and for the few of us where it is, it's not justifiable for the cost-time expense - one of my friends literally decided to stop flying last week, his reasoning: "$200+ for one hour of flying, and half a day is gone along, plus the cash could've paid some bills. It's not worth it." - a lot of people I know feel that way too. For some of us it is the choice of, do we want to own a car or house, or do we want to fly/do other expensive hobbies that cost as much as home loan repayments because our grandparents generation changed the game so we couldn't play it.

 

Even if it were genuinely affordable for most of us, the interest would still not be there, I can explain why below.

Yes - Clubs are populated by old guys, and that is a huge part of the problem, but not for the reasons you think... with the absolute respect, please don't take offence to what I'm about to say, instead see it as an opportunity to understand younger people and maybe put yourselves in our shoes - because as someone who used to hang around different aero clubs every weekend, I don't find them enjoyable or welcoming places. Old guys get stuck in echo chambers, repeating the same unpleasant, inappropriate and incorrect things and agreeing with one another, reinforcing that unpleasantness.

The amount of times I've heard quite frankly homophobic slurs, racism, sexist, ageist, condescending, aggressive, stereotypical comments from old guys at aero clubs (some of which have been echoed in this thread - they are so degrading and exhausting), yeah I think it is pretty clear to me why I and so many others don't feel comfortable being around those environments - and no its not isolated, I genuinely can't think of a single place where I haven't felt uncomfortable to some extent, solely based on the attitudes and behaviours of the old guys at them. If the demographics at aero clubs are gonna change, the existing attitudes need to change and be more welcoming first.

Us younger ones no longer have the skills, and want everything now? Excuse me. And everyone here wonders why young people don't want to hang around people who think so poorly of us? You weren't born with those skills either, you had to learn them, and you had to be in environments that made you want to learn them. <- this part is important.

I never pursued a career in the airlines, I was passionate about it as a kid, it was all I ever dreamt of and wanted to do - the reason I didn't, OLD GUYS and their attitudes, and the environment that created.

Being told by old guys: "there's no money in flying", "the industry is declining", "get a job in the NT on a station and work your way up because you won't get an airline job", I don't know if people realise it but doom and gloom don't exactly make for great encouragement, and it made the idea of the industry look fake, glossy on the outside, but terrible on the inside, not as cool or exciting as I thought it would be.

Me Me Me behaviour. Wow, see, I would've thought that flying a plane for ones own enjoyment was still... 'me me me behaviour', who are you flying for, why are you flying? It's for yourself right?

I tried my best to enjoy aero clubs, and aviation websites, but the amount of doom and gloom, political division, the constant us vs them, old vs young, that unwelcoming environment... that's the issue... old guys are meant to be the inspiration, the mentors, but overwhelmingly, they're the opposite, I think I can count the ones I look up to & respect on one hand, and I've been involved in aviation for 14 years.

But apparently it's just that us young ones no longer have the skills. I started building an RV many years ago, I still am building it, but I was told continuously "you'll never finish it", "it's a waste of money", "we'll believe it's able to fly when we see it", "you're doing it wrong", "it won't fly". But apparently it's just us young ones...

Us young guys can only bring our excitement, we enter the industry thinking it's going to be great, only to be shut down by the very people who's position it is to show us around - what do you guys expect from us? That we are born with the skills to fly? That we will be happy to sit around a bunch of old guys who continuously kick us down? That our young enthusiasm is the key to keeping the industry alive? I hate to be the bearer if bad news, but that's not the key. It's on the old guys to show us an exciting industry that we want to be part of, to encourage us, to create an environment that is welcoming.

I used to love aviation...

9 hours ago, jackc said:

Not necessarily, Australia is the most sparsely populated continent in the World.

7 hours ago, Old Koreelah said:

What matters to this discussion is urban density.

 

One thing to remember in the 'sparsely populated' thing is that half our population are connected by the 3rd and 18th busiest air routes in the world. Our 3 main cities are much closer than they appear.

 

 

 

5 hours ago, jackc said:

Vaccines will take a little longer, although ScoMo has been on a big shopping mission……

17 hours ago, octave said:

To be fair many of these people may not yet have been offered the vaccine although this is rapidly changing.

 

All Australians 16+ are now eligible to get vaccinated, some 12-16 year olds are eligible now too

Of the 16+ population, 62.1% (as of today) already have had at least 1 dose

Australia's supplies will have 10.5 million doses available this month so the supply issues are finally sorted (would've been nice if they were sorted when we were at the front of the queue but better late than never.)

Most pharmacies & GP's should have supplies on hand right now, you might still need to ask around, but the vials are there if you want it

And, we're literally weeks away from 16+ being at 80% fully vaccinated, around 10-11 weeks at the current pace

2 hours ago, octave said:

 

Not sure about other EVs but a Tesla requires your phone app or a card to do pretty much anything. I believe when teslas are stolen the recovery rate is extremely high The cars current  location is always available on the phone app.   

Yep, the location is basically always visible in the app and the car has a built in sim card so its pretty much always connected, but also the 'when Teslas are stolen' made me laugh, if owners have 'pin to drive' activated the car becomes near impossible for someone to steal, plus sentry mode sends alerts via the app and records a video of anyone/thing that comes close enough to the car to trigger it. Safe to say they are the most secure cars in existence.

 

Also for the charging cable, if you are charging at a Tesla Supercharger or using a Tesla home wall charger, the cable locks onto the car when the doors are locked and can only be unplugged when the car doors are unlocked, which goes a long way to preventing random people from pulling the plug while you're in the cafe/shops. Heres an example of that: 

 

20 minutes ago, Kenlsa said:

All well and good and I am interested in an electric aircraft, but just parked in our local off street car park and saw a Tesla sedan plugged in and charging. Dad was out shopping while mum sat in the passenger seat looking board. I don’t know how long it had been there.

I returned to my 4.5lt/100km for 580km to the tank, Picanto some 20 minutes later and asked her how it was going…….”A while to go yet” was the reply. Fantastic!

 

EVs from our mainstream manufacturers would sell  a few more if they looked like cars and not squashed cockroaches 

 

Ken

That sort of thing is usually avoidable with better planning, also not sure why she wasn't out shopping too, you don't need to sit with the car while it charges unlike when you have to stand while filling up at a fuel station. Literally the Tesla will send a message to their phone when it's reached the desired charge.

 

For an example, a trip from Adelaide to Melbourne (8 hours), only requires two charging stops:

The first, a 7 minute top up at Keith SA where you'll probably wait longer for the coffee order to be made while you stretch your legs with the 'stop revive & survive' or whatever the saying is.
The second, a 28 minute charge at Horsham VIC, which again, your lunch or dinner will probably take longer to be ordered, cooked & eaten than it will take for the car to charge.

Heres the plan for that specific trip (provided the link works): https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?plan_uuid=354a9cd5-a34a-4dba-b92f-24834ec116a5

Like with flying a plane, prior planning makes a huge difference, if you plan a road trip correctly, you will spend a comparable or less time than a fuel powered car waiting around for the charge, because instead of standing holding a fuel nozzle and then grabbing food/coffee, you just skip straight to the good bit (food/coffee) and the car does the rest at the same time.

I haven't been on this forum in long time but this thread got me...

There is a lot of misinformation in this thread. Mostly outdated comments that just aren't true today and I'd like to comment on those.

 

 

On 19/07/2021 at 7:58 PM, turboplanner said:

14 years is an impossible cycle in terms of design, test, tool, production so I wouldn’t get too excited. Under 5% market share in Australia and management is looking at firing you. EV got to a heady 0.75% but have fallen back to 0.5%.

Tubz, that may have been true a long time ago, but it is not true today.

 

Tesla (the company) was founded in 2003, 18 years ago. The Tesla Model 3 was first mentioned in 2006, however the company was focused on the Model S and X until 2012, it wasn't until 2015 that their primary focus was on the design and development of the Model 3. 2 years later in 2017, the Model 3 was in production. Basically, when the company finally decided to get serious about the Model 3 - design, test, tool & production took around 5 years (2012-2017).

Not only this, for the production infrastructure, it took just 10 months start to finish for Tesla's Shanghai production factory to be built from application permit to completed construction, with the first cars rolling off the production line 2 months later.

So, 14 years is not impossible, it's actually slow, given that you can start a company and turn it into the worlds most valuable automaker in less than 18 years.

 

 

On 20/07/2021 at 7:24 AM, turboplanner said:

It's the northern hemisphere and these smaller countries that EV proponents quote, but in Australia, if you need to get from Mackay to an appointment with a specialist it's a 4 hour triip at 100 km/hr with nothing in between.

Townsville is 386km from Mackay which is around 4 hours so I'm guessing this is where that specialist trip scenario is for. If you leave Mackay with a full battery in any Tesla, or even a Hyundai Kona, you can easily do the trip, charge at the destination while you're at your appointment and return to Mackay, easily.

But there also isn't nothing in between, the longest distance between dedicated charging stations on that route is 126km from Mackay to Proserpine, and there are several other locations along the way with dedicated chargers already - so even EVs with a much lower range will handle the trip.

 

 

On 20/07/2021 at 7:24 AM, turboplanner said:

Even in Tasmania we have long stretches of 100 km/hr, and up in the NE there are some very high hours distances. From Wynyard to Zeehan I once almost ran a renhtal car out of fuel. The Elders Stocl Agent in Mount Gambier still needs to pick up clients and drive them to Hay in NSW to buy sheep, then get them back that night, all at around 160 km.hr

Wynyard to Zeehan is 152km... most EVs available today in Australia can handle that easily.

As for 160km/h? That's illegal everywhere in Australia last I checked. But, lets say its a real scenario, Mount Gambier to Hay is 629km, and there are already about 10 places you can charge at on or near that shortest/most direct route. Very doable.

 

 

On 20/07/2021 at 7:24 AM, turboplanner said:

Australia has good infrastructure of Petrol stations which could be expanded or duplicated for EV, and in many places there are queues waitijng for the 5 minute fills. Imagine what the queues woiuld be like waiting for 30 minutue or multi-hour charges for EVs - a totally different infrastructure is needed.

Most people leave home with a full charge and don't need to charge again until later in the week with Australia's average usage, I even know some people who charge their cars at the shops while they do their weekly groceries. Charging station usage is a completely different concept to fuel stations, you can't look at it in the same way because it's very different, for an EV a dedicated charging station is more of a backup than a necessity.

Australia also has pretty good coverage for EV charging stations, see the map: https://www.plugshare.com

 

 

On 20/07/2021 at 8:06 PM, skippydiesel said:

Electric cars, buses and light commercials will be a reality - in our cities. It will happen - not sure when but is definitely on the way. 

They're already here... I took an electric bus in the outer suburbs of Sydney two weeks ago. A large number of the public buses in Canberra are electric.

There is also an Australian company that does electric light trucks - https://www.sea-electric.com/

 

 

On 21/07/2021 at 7:36 AM, planesmaker said:

Need we mention the large tax revenue from fuel sales will have to be replaced with???

It's a bit premature, but here's an example of how EVs are taxed for road use: https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/registration/registration-fees/zlev-road-user-charge

 

 

On 22/07/2021 at 2:22 AM, coljones said:

if you are without off-street parking, how will you solve the problem of charging your car?

Supermarkets, destination charging etc.

As I mentioned earlier in this, I've got some friends who charge their cars when they do their weekly grocery shop, which covers their daily usage for the rest of the week.

 

 

On 22/07/2021 at 2:22 AM, coljones said:

For the rest, even those in the sticks, the biggest problem is distance, which, except for those doing long distances, is not a problem at all. I very seriously doubt that the vast majority of drivers in Australia would have a daily commute of more than 100km and on a trip of more than 300.

Correct, the average Australian drives just 36.4km a day - https://www.budgetdirect.com.au/car-insurance/research/average-kilometers-driven.html

 

Every single EV in Australia can handle the average Aussies commute easily already. Even a 2012 $9000 Mitsubishi iMiev with a range of around 100km on a full charge would only need to be charged 2 or 3 times a week if people aren't topping up the battery as they sleep each night.

 

 

4 hours ago, mkennard said:

I can't wait till the tech starts coming to aircraft, this is one of the reasons I prefer mogas to avgas. Maybe I'm wrong but minus the lead and I assume cleaner burning. Rotax has been trying to improve their current line up if you can afford the newer engines but one day they need to change, we all need to change.

It has started - https://www.pipistrel-aircraft.com/aircraft/electric-flight/alpha-electro/

 

 

7 minutes ago, jackc said:

I will never buy one, because they won’t make what I want.  All I want is 150km range, rubber floor mats, hand crank windows, no fancy displays or CD player.

Think back to the early ‘60s VW beetles.  Just a basic set of wheels for a realistic price.

You're in luck, there is a company in Byron Bay offering exactly that - https://www.instagram.com/ev_classic/

Before the speculation runs too rampant as it has elsewhere... (Please avoid judgement also, the pilot and passenger were airlifted to Canberra Hospital, the last thing they need right now is negative thoughts).

 

The facts are:

The flight was from Bankstown to Cambridge (Hobart) cruising at FL160. Approx 20nm past Moruya the engine failed, they were losing 1000fpm. The aircraft was pressurised, it was a P210N model. The aircraft had a turboprop, not piston motor. From this height they were able to make it back to Moruya, but had about 2 minutes at most near the airport to assess the situation/airfield and make their decision (which in the heat of the moment would go very quickly, and keep in mind a normal circuit does take around 6 minutes). They chose to attempt an approach onto 04, however were too high and too close so quickly switched to a circuit onto 18, unfortunately they weren't able to make the final turn and instead of attempting a low level steep turn they chose to put it down straight ahead into the overshoot scrub. The wind throughout the day was gusting to around 40kts and it was hot (so people were at the beach).

 

Moruya can be a tricky airfield, it does have its characteristics that can catch people off guard, an example being unexpected sink near the river, and when it's windy it can be a challenge due to the terrain & mechanical turbulence.

 

Given the amount of practice forced landings I've done at Moruya, I think the pilot has done a good job under pressure and whatever decisions they thought were right has ultimately saved their lives (and that's all that matters, aircraft can be replaced), although they probably will be spending Christmas in Canberra Hospital. Hoping they have a speedy recovery.

 

 

Our country is more (demographically) like Canada than USA. Does Canada use the USA model?

For the most part yes, but there are some slight differences (some due to the Magnetic North Pole/True North Pole for example.)

 

Thanks, KazSo the USA system relies heavily on a much bigger, more exy radar network. Not going to happen in Aus. (Unless we cut subsidising casa and spend that money on safety infrastructure)

Not really something to worry about in Aus. For Australia to have the desired E over C, it's basically just the re-categorisation of a section of current Class C airspace that is needed (ie. the top tier of the upside down wedding cake) around cities that already exists; this airspace already has radar coverage. For airspace specifically, we aren't hugely dissimilar, it's just that one layer of the cake that makes the difference. Population Density plays a big part, take Canada for example which has far more Class G airspace. Outback Australia wouldn't suddenly be forced to switch from G to E down low unless there became a need for it with 600,000 pilots flying around in localised areas as there are in the USA, so realistically from what I can tell, not much would change with regards to that - class G would still be class G until it's busy enough to become anything else.

 

Basically the most notable change would be removing the road blocks in the J curve on the East Coast, so that pilots aren't forced over dangerous terrain and are able to plan an efficient flight.

 

Two examples:

 

Currently -

 

- Imagine you're in flight from Kempsey to Grafton, Grafton is your home base, there is forecast cloud on the mountains but the coast is clear, if you hold a CTA Endorsement you proceed to Coffs and request clearance but get told to remain OCTA for the moment, you just want to get home, you consider skirting around the edge of the airspace, you know there is at least 500ft of altitude you can use between you and the ground, but there is still the risk of cloud just to the west. There are a few options, don't fly in the first place (but its clear on the coast), you can return to Kempsey (waste of fuel, time, money), you can wait for clearance (waste of fuel, time, money), you can skirt around the edge (potentially fatal). If you don't hold a CTA Endorsement, that reduces your options significantly.

 

With E over C -

 

- Imagine you're in flight from Kempsey to Grafton, Grafton is your home base, there is forecast cloud on the mountains but the coast is clear, you don't even hold a CTA Endorsement (or you do, but in this case it makes no difference), you stick to your plan and fly directly over Coffs at say 9500ft in clear skies, no clearance necessary and no impact on IFR traffic (ATC are dealing with them the exact same way they do now). You're observing the cloud down to the left of you that isn't a hazard, you land safely at Grafton, no fuel, time or money wasted. No get-there-itis. Just a safe flight that went to plan.

 

Or Currently -

 

- Imagine you're in flight from Moruya to Wagga, there is 15 knots of wind but otherwise it's a nice day, if you hold a CTA Endorsement you proceed wanting a clearance to continue direct, a distance of 138nm, but are denied and you now have four options, wait for clearance, return to Moruya, go around Canberra airspace to the South (dangerous terrain, 15kts you'll probably see experience some mountain waves, and the distance is now 185nm), go around Canberra airspace to the North (safer terrain, distance is now 190nm) 1.5x your planned flight distance, 1.5x the cost. 1.5x the fatigue.

 

With E over C -

 

- Imagine you're in flight from Moruya to Wagga, you proceed on your plan at say 8500ft, in class E over Canberra. You can see traffic in the distance on descent and climbing out past you in line with the runway, but they aren't a concern because they aren't directly above the airport. You land safely at Wagga.

 

Or the real world example that Dick tends to talk about, VH-MDX.

 

Don't like being forced down too close to ground. My instructor always warned me to stay away from the edges of the sky.

Ironically, the E over C would solve that by adding the option of flying over at, in the examples above, 8500+ as opposed to skirting around the airspace under the steps.

 

 

Statistically the number one scenario of an unintentional stall is below circuit height in the circuit, turning base-final, followed closely by initial climb out. There are numerous studies that the FAA in particular have done specifically on that which are relevant anywhere in the world, so I won't beat that old drum that was already smashed out in this thread a year ago.

 

If you are close to stall speed

What is this 'Stall Speed' business Nev? Angle of Attack...

 

 

Yep.Simple pilot theory is far from true in real life. Neither speed for best angle of climb nor best rate of climb occur at a "fixed angle of attack"! Refer: http://cospilot.com/documents/Why Vx and Vy Change with Altitude.pdf

Ah, I see where the misunderstanding between Ada and I is, I am talking angles, Ada is talking speed (ie. The thing I wanted to stop talking about).

In a glider, the max climb rate is naturally going to be the Max L/D which is a fixed AoA, this is also the case for any airfoil. In a powered aircraft it will be the Max L/D + thrust.

 

As a side note, don't forget the Lift Formula, make CL the subject and you'll be halfway there.

 

 

Gravity doesn't have a velocity dependent thrust. This is similar to jet planes, and jets can fly BAoC/BRoC at the maximal L/D.In prop planes with airspeed dependent thrust, how does AoA for BRoC/BAoC stay constant, given that thrust varies depending on airspeed?

This is just gonna go around in circles because neither of us are talking about the same thing.

When the engine fails, your best rate of climb is going to be L/D Max, because you won't be climbing and you will be wanting to obtain max lift/min drag. This will also be your max glide. This is at a fixed AoA. Just because you have an engine on the front does not mean that the airfoil will operate any differently, it is still operating under the same laws of physics as a fixed wing aircraft, the exact same as a glider.

 

This thread is specifically about stalling however so I would much rather keep it specifically on that as your other thread is already discussing Vx/Vy.

 

 

You fly at the maximal L/D AoA.How do I fly best rate of climb in a glider without an iron thermal?

Your rate of climb can be in the negatives (aka descending), it is not limited to a positive rate of climb only, and any attempts to raise or lower the AoA from the L/D Max will result in an even lower climb rate.

 

 

What do you mean by maximum performance?

Maximum Lift, Minimum Drag.

 

 

I'm pretty sure some of the factors quoted here do not alter the indicated stall speed. ie: wind velocity, air temperature, air density and I'm not sure what is meant by aircraft performance?

Indicated maybe not, but true airspeed will change. That part was simply a quote from the website that was linked with the calculator.

Aircraft performance, I assume they are referring to engine/power settings/no engine and how the aircraft is being operated (diving, climbing, etc).

 

Try this recovery method in a stall turn in a Pitts, you'll find yourself in an inverted spin 9 out of 10 times. You need to install the wings, which may require back stick.

Exactly, shove the stick too far forward and you'll be in an inverted stall requiring back pressure. The safest bet is to centralise the control column.

 

A glider has no best rate of climb or best angle of climb - these are only factors for powered aircraft.

If a glider doesn't have a best rate or angle, how do they obtain maximum performance out of the wing? Think about it for a bit...

 

 

I can't see that the maximised thrust available occurs at a single AoA.

Forget the engine and prop and take a look at a glider, the wings do not produce thrust (see below regarding gliders), the thrust is an additional component of the powered airframe. This is especially important when we are talking stalling, because once the engine fails, you are effectively in a glider and the wing will be the only thing you are relying on for the best performance.

 

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/k-12/VirtualAero/BottleRocket/airplane/glider.html

 

Here is another link from the website you referenced also regarding L/D Max: http://code7700.com/l_over_d_max.html

 

 

Thanks, I'd read a lot of this elsewhere but it's hard to find instructors, for example, who teach that the elevators control AoA rather than pitch.

Does BRoC and BAoC really happen at a fixed angle of attack, in a variable angle prop? I thought that they were dependent on the properties of the prop combined with the properties of the wing/aircraft:

 

- BAoC is thrust available - thrust needed

 

- BRoC is power available - power needed

 

but since power is a speed related variable, as you change weight/CoG/etc the power needed changes and you might change AoA for BRoC.

A wing is acting independently of the prop, you can not go beyond the optimum performance angle of a particular airfoil. It is not physically possible, so yes, it is a fixed Angle of Attack for the specific airfoil. If it were a maths equation it would probably look like: (optimum/maximum AoA for whatever you are asking it to do) + (maximum prop/engine performance) = (maximum output)

 

 

 

Edit: Of course if you want a specific output, and you have excess power (vs weight) at L/D Max (Optimum AoA), you can maintain the power and reduce AoA (no longer using maximum AoA for what you are asking it to do) [3+7=10 just as 5+5=10) If that makes sense.

 

 

Ok, So this is going to be a bit of a rant and so I felt it was better off in its own specific thread.

 

http://www.csgnetwork.com/aircraftturninfocalc.html says that at 60 knots, with a 45 knot stall speed, and a 35 degree angle of bank, you can do a rate 4 turn (180 degrees in 15 seconds), increasing the stall speed to 50 knots.

"This calculator DOES NOT take into consideration wind speed or direction, temperature, air density or aircraft performance and assumes LEVEL flight and turns." - ANY of those, along with weight, flap configuration, dirt/ice on the wings will change the so called 'Stall Speed'. The 'Stall Speed' is not a static number and staying a little faster than this won't save your ass when you are low, pulling or pushing the stick, uncoordinated and eventually spinning into the ground.

 

I was asking about the aerodynamics of the stall in this situation, not the numbers on the instruments. I've not flown anything heavier than a Warrior.

I haven't followed the thread closely, however I will jump in here: If you are worried about the 'stall speed', there is a damn good chance you will become another stall/spin statistic.

There is a reason why stall/spins are the number one killer in General Aviation with a significant lead. General Aviation really needs to get this 'stall speed' business out of stalls altogether! An Aircraft stalls because of one thing and one thing alone, exceeding the critical angle of attack.

 

A few points:

 

• You can do this at ANY airspeed, with the nose of the aircraft pointed up, down, or inside out depending on how low you are.
   
   
  
• You can do this with the stick forward (inverted) or back (upright).
   
   
  
• You can do an inverted stall with the ground and sky in the correct position.
   
   
  
• You can do a 'normal' upright stall with the ground above you.
   
   
  
• You can stall in a dive.
   
   
  
• You can stall going 120 kts in an aircraft with the 'stall speed' of 45 kts.
   
   
   
  
• You can fly an aircraft at an indicated airspeed below the 'stall speed'.
   
   
  
• The posted 'stall speed' is at a specific data point - ie. MTOW, Full Flaps, Straight and Level, Nil Wind, Specific Air Density, Specific Temperature, Specific Altitude, Clean Aircraft in the exact configuration it left the blueprints. Change any one of these and you change the 'stall speed'.
   
   
  
• The Critical Angle of Attack is a fixed angle, for most aircraft, it will be around 15 degrees AoA.
   
   
  
• The smallest power off descent rate occurs at a fixed angle of attack.
   
   
  
• The best glide ratio occurs at a fixed angle of attack.
   
   
  
• The best rate of climb occurs at a fixed angle of attack.
   
   
  
• The best angle of climb occurs at a fixed angle of attack.
   
   
  
• The best approach speed occurs at a fixed angle of attack.
   
   
  
• The best L/D occurs at a fixed angle of attack.
   
   
  
• The best range occurs at a fixed angle of attack.
   
   
   
  

 

 

Pilots seem reluctant to get rid of the 'stall speed' idea, I always hear things like: "How can we find out the critical AoA? that's too difficult, a fixed angle! How could I ever avoid that?! I feel much better chucking a few knots on and approaching at 1.3Vso rather than 8 degrees AoA or whatever your specific airfoil will always be optimum at.", the marketing for aircraft "This excellent aircraft cruises at Mach 4 and stalls at 7 kts but not if you change any of the previously mentioned variables and this in reality tells you nothing but makes the aircraft look like an awesome buy so we can make some more cash!" or of course RAAus being limited to "45kts Stall Speed" because it is that heavily ingrained into GA Culture, and the one I love the most "it's not that simple".

 

The only way to reduce statistics and stop a very preventable accident from happening is to teach people correctly and quite evidently what is currently being taught is not working, if it were the stats wouldn't be so horrible; you do not stall an aircraft because of the 'stall speed'. You stall an aircraft because you exceeded the critical Angle of Attack and as a side note an AoA Indicator will show this before any other indicator in the aircraft. It really is that simple.

 

Honestly an AoA indicator with an audible alert is a cheap investment (can get them under $1000 now), if you are able to put one in your aircraft of course. The day it is held with the same regard as Airspeed Indicators as a minimum instrument is the day General Aviation becomes significantly safer.

 

The alternative is to keep beating the same old drum over and over again and continue to hear the cries about "yet another stall/spin accident" and "what can we possibly do to prevent this from happening time and time again". It's a culture change that is needed as much as an understanding change.

 

/end rant

 

 

The long range weather forecast looks pretty good at this stage, hopefully it ends up that way in reality. Here is some more info for those wishing to fly in on the day:

 

Details for pilots flying in

 

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RSVP: For catering purposes it would be greatly appreciated if everyone intending to fly in can just send a quick email reply so we can get an estimate on numbers, however we will have plenty of Tea/Coffee/Cakes/Fruit etc. for people who show up on the day.

 

The Morning Tea itself (Tea/Coffee/Cakes etc. around 11am) will be free, but we would greatly appreciate a donation to the Cancer Council either via the labelled buckets that will be placed around the Aero Club or via our fundraising page @ http://nsw.cancercouncilfundraising.org.au/MoruyaAeroClub

 

(*Tax Receipts are available for those who need them - contact me on the day to fill out the request form or email and I can get it all arranged, the Cancer Council post these out once the request forms are submitted.)

 

We will also be planning to fire up the BBQ around 12:45-1pm for a Sausage Sizzle BBQ Lunch for anyone who is still here early arvo (we know some people will probably have to leave around then to get home due to daylight), the Sausage Sizzle BBQ Lunch will be $10 each.

 

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Aircraft Parking: We will have someone in a bright yellow vest providing parking directions - this will start on the Eastern Side of the Aero Club and gradually to the North into the large open area (south of the 05-22 cross strip) depending on numbers of aircraft that fly in to cause minimal interference with the Skydiving Ops.

 

Situational Awareness: Please also be aware of Skydiving Ops when flying in - For pilots unfamiliar with flying near an active drop zone, if there is a drop happening, it is generally recommended to orbit in position away from the airfield for the few minutes, maintaining situational awareness of other aircraft and also well clear of the canopies who will be on descent generally directly over the airfield. The pilot of the jump plane will announce on the radio when a drop is occurring and when the canopies are on the ground shortly after. If you are taxiing on the ground during a drop, if possible, please hold position and maintain idle throttle or shut the engine down to prevent prop wash from affecting canopies as they land.

 

As it could be quite busy on the day, it is important to remember 'See and Avoid' and clear, concise communication; as Moruya is a CTAF and there are no air traffic services provided, normal Class G procedures apply and it is up to the pilot to maintain safe separation from other aircraft, as always.

 

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If you have any questions, please send an email and we will do our best to help.

 

Hoping for great flying weather and we look forward to seeing you all here if you can make it!

 

Thanks

 

 

MORUYA AERO CLUB'S BIGGEST MORNING TEA - 11AM SUNDAY June 7, 2015!

 

The Moruya Aero Club is hosting a Biggest Morning Tea to help raise vital funds for cancer research and support services. You can help the club, the cause, and get involved, by attending or making a donation! We are all affected by cancer in some way, whether that is a friend, family, or even yourself fighting the disease - We are all in it together, supporting each other, so let's raise our cups and together we'll beat cancer.

 

Fly or Drive in, Sunday, June 7, 2015 - the Morning Tea will begin at 11am. You are all invited so please share and invite your friends along too - we look forward to seeing you all at the club!

 

 

A Morgan Cheetah has Run off the runway at Tooradin, reports the pilot has been airlifted with possible spinal injuries.

 

 

 

just talked to someone from the area (my old instructor)... not a single seater, its a tandem tail dragger. 2 of them went out, one returned. so sad :(

From all the reports, it is an RAAus registered single seater, it hasn't been confirmed yet but it seems like it *could* be a Karaone/Karasport; as for 2 of them going out, see the below clipping from a news article:

 

-------

 

Mr Greig was flying in a small home-built style plane and had taken off from Wedderburn Airport with a similar aircraft.

 

The two planes were on their way to Albion Park Airport but hit bad weather.

 

"The two aircraft were separated from one another and unfortunately Mr Greig's aircraft came to the fateful end that we have before us today," Superintendent Kyle Stewart told reporters.

 

http://www.9news.com.au/national/2015/01/28/03/41/search-for-missing-plane-continues

 

 

CASA are NOT attacking Jabiru, nor are they trying to destroy Jabiru. Look at it from a different perspective rather than jump to Jabiru's defence.

 

This is an opportunity from CASA who are willing to offer their resources to help Jabiru with the research and development to improve the Jabiru product. Most companies would love for that same luxury of access to those kind of resources.

 

Every single product has room to improve, nothing is perfect, not even Jabiru and their engines.

 

It would be very unwise to work against CASA, I can't name many companies, if any, who have succesfully done so and survived. Jabiru need to grab on to this and use it to their own benefit. If they wish to survive the next 12 months they need to work with CASA, improve the product, it really isn't a huge ask.

 

 

I wonder if this applies to an experimental amateur built(VH registered) and RAAus registered aircraft or just the certified VH registered ones?...

I am certainly not a fan of Jabiru, however I have just submitted an email to Lee Ungermann requesting that experimental aircraft powered by Jabs be exempt from this due to the fact that it conflicts with the experimental regs which are designed to allow those freedoms regardless of what engine. I hope others will do the same and send in an email before the 20th to highlight this issue.

 

This is a case of short term pain but long term real gain. Jabiru will be forced to improve the reliability of all Jab engines. I just hope they have the financial reserves to do that and stay in business. It would be a disaster for aviation in Australia iJab were to go under. I wonder if it will force a jab to take up the Camit improvements to get a quick result to meet CASA requirements.How will Jabiru sell a single aircraft while this hangs over their head? They must have known it was coming. Perhaps finally we'll be able to buy a Jab with Rotax engine as a factory build?

I agree, if Jab fix the problems, then this could very well become a massive gain for them. There are already some Jabs out there with factory installed Rotax engines, all 24 and legit (I believe one is based at Caboolture and is available for flight training).

 

 

It wont be long before airport operators have cameras that record every movement ,like police cars have rego reading .That will sort out false radio transmitions and will be enough to prove , or not , that you were there .

Mike

Merimbula Airport has had cameras for a number of years.