nickduncs84

True Nick. You can't compare a mass produced CAR with an aero engine that is certified. Certification is one of the problems, because it is hard to change things. ( even for the better)I know lots of people who make stuff with CNC machines all over the place. They can't get the material for the price of the finished part from CHINA.. Making lots of stuff ends up being material plus a small percentage only..

Jabiru is low volume with lots of variations in the installation, usage etc. Some owners were even using Start Ya Barmaid. It's been out there from about 1993.

 

Anyone who is in the CNC machining game looks at the Jabiru and the Rotec Radial and wonders how they can make any money out of making them. The Rotax is not really capable of being rebuilt at an economical price and it isn't cheap.

 

Regarding Ian Boags Conti Lyc comments

 

You would never need new cylinders till into the second life unless you dusted them or such.. You might reseat the valves. (face valves and seats) and replace the valve guides and re ring, if you are unlucky. A lot of them are 2400 hr.TBO. The exhaust valves are the critical part and you can get cylinders,camshaft rusting if you let the motor sit unused, without inhibiting it. Nev

Yes that was what I was getting at. The reality is that Aviation can't be cheap. Even without regulation. Add in regulation and it's not hard to see why a single engine Cessna with a 200HP engine all of a sudden costs $500k.

Experimental and recreational aviation provide all kinds of opportunities for the average person to get into the sky. But we shouldn't expect to get a 500k cessna when we buy a 100k Ultralight...

 

I saw a fairly new J230 for sale for 65k the other day. That's a good buy in any climate (even the current one). Spend a bit extra to put in the right engine instrumentation to at least improve your odds. If things really don't work out, spend 20k on a new Camit and you're still in pretty good shape....but all of that being said, don't pretend it's something it's not. Everytime I fly into Sydney on the big Q I see Wedderburn and think about how there isn't enough money in the world to pay me to fly out of there day in day out....even in a Cessna....but certainly not in a Jabiru...

 

And as Dafydd was alluding to, there are far more dangerous risk factors in aviation than engines. The round thing on your shoulders is far more likely to kill you than any engine is....

 

 

As regards value for money, for the price of a 2200 I could just about buy a brand new Hyundai excel with 88hp. Run on any fuel in any heat with neglecting service intervals and have a pretty damn good run out of the motor. And have the rest of the vehicle thrown in for free.Nope, for $15000 I want to bolt it in and turn the key.

I can't say I'm a big fan of Jabiru management, but I do empathise with Rod Stiff when I read things like this. My Grandpa once told me that it doesn't matter how much you love your job, eventually you'll get sick of dealing with people and throw in the towel.

 

I can just picture Rod sitting in his office with steam coming out of his ears as he listens to someone compare a Jabiru to a Hyundai. Before he's even had a chance to formulate his thoughts he develops a mental image of about 100 reasons why comparing the price of a mass produced car to a niche aero engine is so absurd. But he's reached the end of his tether, so instead of being drawn into the conversation with yet another misguided soul, he turns around repeatedly head butts the desk until he passes out. Just another day in Bundy I would imagine....

 

 

Casa have charged my credit card, so I assume they are going to send me something at some stage. I applied about 6 weeks ago. Re the issues you are facing, it's complete bullocks, but the easiest solution is probably to go to a school that does Ra Aus and ppl/rpl. You might need to do a couple of hours so that they are comfortable putting their name to your application, but at least they won't be of the belief that Ra Aus is inferior and make you do everything again. I'm at Adelaide biplanes in Aldinga who are very much pro Ra Aus and we're very helpful in getting the rpl application processed. Good luck.

 

 

It is a plane for the price of a 912ULS not a 912 UL, I misread the ad the first time but the airframe is only eight years old so it is still marvelous value.

Yep I saw that kitfox a couple of days ago. Last time there was a IV on the members market it only lasted a week, so this may well be gone already, especially at that price. If I didn't just buy a plane I'd be onto this one in a flash.

 

 

Hi Orienteer. What sort of skills do you have in the way of building a kit.. may have a proposal for you....

 

 

I agree Nick, but if it was a car, you wouldn't expect to pay for parts or labour if the supplied floats failed or may fail before their normal service life and were the subject of a recall, which is effectively what a mandatory SB is. So why do we expect to wear it? Just because we always have?

I'm sure there is a more elegant answer from someone that has been around aviation long enough to know the real answer, but as far as I can see, you've pretty much nailed it. It's that way because it's always been that way. I'm guessing it may also have something to do with the long calendar life of aircraft and aviation engines and the associated issues.

 

 

OK, I have a brand new unstarted 912ULS still in the box, when I hang it on my plane, before I can use it I have to comply with a mandatory service bulletin to change unsatisfactory carb floats it was supplied with, Who should pay for the parts and labour Dr?

It all comes down to meeting or exceeding customers expectations. In aviation, people expect to pay for maintenance related to ADs. They don't expect to pay 20k for an engine that lasts for 300 hours

 

 

The biggest reason why I would never buy a Jabiru engine is how the company carries itself. Reputation is and always will be everything and Jabirus is horrid. I don't know enough about engines to know why they fail and who's fault it is, but the comments made by Jabiru both publicly and privately are ridiculous. There is nowhere near enough data about whether the Camit engines are more reliable or not, but I've never heard a bad word about them as company. That's a big deal. I would buy a Camit engine at half the cost of a rotax knowing that I'm taking a bit of a risk but at least won't be dealing with a bunch of unethical morons.

 

So back to the topic of this thread. Surely the damage to Jabirus reputation from an incident like this is far far more expensive than just fixing the bloody engine.

 

 

I am quite interested in the RPL, Has anyone actually started the conversion process yet?

I sent off my papers today. I'll let you know how it goes. I filled everything out with the help of my cfi who had just had a meeting with a casa rep about the Ra Aus to rpl process so I can't imagine too many issues. If there are issues I'll just stop being lazy and sit the ppl exam and not bother with the rpl thing.

 

 

Maybe Ian Baker (owner of this site) would like to give us some ideas of costs for a server to do what RAAus is running.Mike

The answer would be not a lot, at least it shouldn't be a lot. Looks like they are running with rackspace which is kind of like putting jet fuel in your lawnmower. A managed rackspace server with 30gb of storage and 500gb of bandwidth may well cost over $1,500 a month, but running sites like the Ra Aus site is not really what rackspace is for. It makes sense for companies that have to scale up quickly (ie start up Web companies) and companies that require other things like content delivery networks and version control. For sites like the Ra Aus site, you could easily get a managed vps with weekly backups for $200 or so a month. Obviously I don't know the actual details of what Ra Aus is paying and the bandwidth they need, but a penny saved is a penny earned and it may make more sense to move to a more suitable hosting company than jack up the advertising fees.

 

 

Have you lived anywhere else for any extended period of time Nick? Trips to Bali don't count

Sure have mate. Lived for 5 years in Boston and have spent extended times in Canada and the UK with work commitments. Never actually been to Bali. I would move to China and build engines, but between the rotax 912 and the bex 1000 the market is a little over saturated for me.

 

 

If you get frustrated every time the government makes a rash uninformed decision it won't be long before you lose your mind. Government departments generally generally believe that every time a tragedy of any sort occurs, there is a law that should be changed to fix it. There was recently a truck that lost it brakes on the south eastern freeway which killed 2 innocent people. One of the responses was to reduce the speed limit for all cars travelling on the road. To my knowledge there has never been a car lose its brakes and I'm sure that changing the speed limit by 10km will not have any impact on safety at all. What I am absolutely certain of is that there was no study done to determine if it was a rational decision or not.

 

So the moral of the story is, the majority of government departments from local council and up are bloated wastes of space. But I'd still rather live in Australia than anywhere else in the world, so I'll continue to sleep well at night, even though I know a fair chunk of my tax dollars get flushed down the toilet in one way or another.

 

 

15 kt is the max xwind component in a pa18 from what I understand, but I was referring to actual wind strength which was around 15 kt at the time. Pretty normal for Aldinga but normally not an issue with all the runway choices.

 

 

tailwheel in a nice gentle headwind, about 10 landings should have you feeling pretty cocky. tailwheel in a 15kt gusty crosswind and I get the feeling that it will be a long time before it doesn't feel like a new adventure every time!

 

 

It's all relative. IMHO Aldinga is good value for money all things considered. Good range of aircraft, minimal taxi time, great instructors. Cheaper and much better quality than anything at Parafield. Sports cub may end up being $100 an hour more than a Jabiru, but the endo will only take 6 or 7 hours as others have said. You will also come out of it as a much better and safer pilot. Just my opinion, but I'm glad I did it. You could do it in the super cub and get your RPL with controlled airspace endo signed off at the same time I believe.

 

 

At least he's not colour blind. That would be a real safety concern.

 

 

Ha I took online to mean online for hire and fly. But if it did mean the other type of online I'll take a look for sure!

 

 

What a beauty! Pity it's not in SA!

 

 

Cupla things. Maybe I'm the only one, but sometimes the spelling and grammar on this site is what makes me chuckle. So much emphasis on correctness these days. It's good to be able to not give a toss about the rules sometimes isn't it? And in relation to spell check, I'm pretty sure even the spell checker has no idea what some people on this site are on about sometimes. Those ones are the ones that make me laugh the most.

 

 

All these idiots who can't spell, who build their own aeroplanes, who have paid for their own training, who teach people to fly, who fly jets for airlines. All these darn idiots. And of course, the one genius who has worked out that the key to a CFI's heart is an empty wallet. Good luck pal.

 

 

Pete, I too revisited the whole BRS thing after learning of this accident.

 

Well, speaking personally, I find it more constructive to chop a load of firewood, if there's nothing more apposite available. I would say, do not grieve that these men died; rejoice that they lived. Everything that lives must die; that is an inevitable fact. The wonderful thing is to have any existence at all. The statistical chance of being born means we have each won the most incredible lottery. We miss people we have known; and the price is high for those directly involved - but look at it the right way around.Having conducted several accident investigations of fatal crashes myself, I've found it useful to document what definitely did NOT cause the accident. That acts to focus attention on a "short list" of possibilities - and it goes a long way to stopping irresponsible speculation.

 

We do not know whether there was an airworthiness problem or a piloting problem, or something else - but given the experience of the instructor, a piloting problem seems less likely. Hopefully, the investigation will clarify that. However, the classification of the aircraft puts it in the lowest safety category, and the significance of that needs to be recognised.

 

The fundamental point here is, I suggest, that the aircraft was a 50% rule experimental kit aircraft (under RAA 95.55.1.5, but in effect operating under the same philosophy as a VH aircraft under CASR 21.191(g)) . That means, flying in such an aircraft constitutes a voluntary assumption of risk; and since the crash occurred in NSW, it comes under the "hazardous recreational activity" legislative precedents. Both occupants presumably comprehended this. If you look at the appendices to CASA Advisory Circular 21.10, which explains the whole experimental aircraft scene quite comprehensively, you will find a risk analysis there (mainly focussed on the risk involved in the initial test flying). I would like to see that risk analysis extended somewhat so that it could give some indication of the risk according to the merit or otherwise of the aircraft; and that risk analysis score to be displayed on the mandatory notice that is required on all experimental aircraft.

I think that idealistically, this would be a good idea, but in practice, it would get butchered to no end and the result would be detrimental to general aviation. There are just too many variables and not enough education to allow members of the public to make an informed decision. The whole thing would just scare people off.

 

In this case, what you are saying is only relevant if it was a structural failure that proves to be the cause. But what if it was a bird strike? A c150 in the same spot at the same time could suffer a similar fate. There are quite a few experimental which I consider to be safer than quite a few certified machines. So why scare people off experimentals, let's just scare them off all airplanes.

 

Let's suppose that one of the factors relates to the failure rate amongst the current fleet. So Vans are probably going to look pretty good compared to a newer company. But there are other factors that may or may not make their way into the analysis. For example many would think that a nose over in a Vans aircraft presents a risk that they aren't willing to take. Others would argue that it doesn't happen enough to make them worry. Another example is BRS. Some would argue that it mitigates some of the risks of flying. Others would argue that the behavioural changes brought on by having a BRS combined with the lack of training actually outweigh the benefit.

 

Then there are other risks that aren't often considered by the PIC let alone communicated to the people that would benefit (ie passengers). EFATO options, terrain considerations, short field landings where the consequence of an engine failure are greatly increased, etc, etc.

 

Point is, there are literally hundreds of things that we must consider before we go flying, and it's even more important when we are assuming responsibility for someone else's life. I had previously thought that enforceable risk disclosure could prevent many of the stupid accidents we see, but the more I thought about it, the more obvious it was to me that this is one of those things you can't put a formula to. The best thing we can do is do the best job we can educating new pilots about the various risk factors. From there, it is up to each individual pilot to properly analyse the risk of each flight and regardless of their own risk profile, consider the wellbeing of their passengers above all else. For those of us with kids, it should be pretty easy. If if you wouldn't be comfortable with your child in the front seat next to you, then you shouldn't be doing it.

 

All of that being said, I'm sure that accidents like this make us all think and that's a good thing. I was actually looking at buying a factory built Morgan, but after reading the Old Bar report, there was enough in there for me to change my mind. Is that a fair to Morgan? Maybe, maybe not. I'm sure Graham read the same report and I'm sure he was fully aware of the risks he was taking and was comfortable with his decision to fly. Would Graham have changed his mind if another Morgan had broken up in flight previously? I'm sure he would have at least thought about it, and I'm sure he would want you to do the same.

 

So go fly safely, whatever that means to you. Don't assume something won't happen to you and don't pass up an opportunity to learn something, even if does come via a tragedy such as this.

 

 

You won't close ADG because the people who have a vested interest need somewhere to park their twins and hired aircraft, interesting to see the number of vacant hangar (ie no aircraft in them) spots.I have no issue with paying a landing fee, actually prefer that - I personally built & owned the 2nd largest hangar at YSCB so don't lecture me about costs as I had to pay solicitors & valuers every 2 years (rent review) to 'put a lid' on the exhorbitant rates they wanted. I'm led to believe the hangar cost is around $1000 per month now .When the airport was privatised the rates went up 100% overnight.

My 'whinge' is the inequitable way it's done at ADG because they are too lazy to collect landing fees so they make aircraft owner tenants pay & everyone else gets off scott free. Hangar owners pay half that amount.

 

Charge what you think you need to but it's unfair to charge a minority & the majority pay nothing as they can come & go as often as they like without paying a cent.

Serious question, how do airports go about charging 'landing fees'. Without knowing the answer, I'm assuming that it would be quite labour intensive would it not? I can certainly see why an airport owner would opt for the simplicity of an annual fee than bother with all that.

 

I also think that a fair few people would rather pay an annual fee than landing fees. And $700 a year doesn't sound to bad when you compare ADG to other airports. Well maintained, good facilities, etc.

 

 

Glasair sportsman although it's Ga. They have an lsa coming out. Not sure if it's going to have folding wings or not.

 

 

What I mean, Nick, is who actually said this? Is it just heresay, scuttlebutt, or did someone with some expertise or experience take responsibility for this?

It's a letter from rod stiff. You can download the whole thing from the Jabiru website as Oscar said.

 

 

I agree Oscar. My issue wasn't with the comments regarding informing an insurer, thats probably prudent and is a helpful tip. My issue was the 'leave the research and development to Jabiru coment'. I think most jab owners would love to do that. Yeah I know some mods like EDI are more for performance gains, but the people that get liquid cooled heads installed or are looking at camit engines are only doing so because of the issues with the tankard Jabiru engines. It's a bit rich to tell people to leave the r&d to Jabiru when the bloody things keep failing