vixen

How long is the Government going to waste taxpayers money looking for this jet ? They're all dead, lets move on.

Hi,Just wondering if this school is still operating? I sent an email a couple of days ago and tried to call Dave but phone doesn't answer.If it's still in business, does anyone know if it's open for training on Mondays?

 

Thanks,

 

Pat

Wouldn't a good, simple, inexpensive start be to fit every RAA a/c flight with a Gopro or equiv? Yes I know it doesn't prove the cause of an accident but it may provide some strong clues?

Registered operator as of 17-2-17AUSTRALIAN CORPORATE JET CENTRES PTY. LTD.

A 1996 King Air operated by MyJet Aviation of East Bendigo. Very Sad

Of course all pilots know that in an aircraft accident there is almost never just one reason - usually the good old chain of events..

I wonder if the sun was a contributing factor here... he's flying into it and as the wing drops a significant reflective flash of the sun can be seen on the windscreen. As he started to tighten the turn was he momentarily blinded and lost his horizon reference? Plus (as Dutch alluded to) - the startle factor. (love that Dutch!).

I guess we'll never know but I suggest there are a lot more chain links to this tragedy than a simple "he stalled it turning finals".

One is owner and one is operator

Interestingly the Cessna in question is owned by...........LOW FLYER INVESTMENTS PTY LTD 18A Seaspray Dr AGNES WATER QLD 4677 Australia

 

There were plenty of passengers and therefore witnesses who will all be interviewed because of the death. The truth will come out, eventually.

A while ago i rang a schoo; in QLD who had the a vixen on line and ask to get check out in it. they siad that i was better off flying the A22 for a few hours. they siad the vixen can be a handful to fly

Good on Peter Harlow from Foxbat Australia for being so quick to post a preliminary report.

The weak nose wheels were the Achilles heel of early Foxbats but they've progressively beefed them up with several design revisions. This Vixen nose wheel should have been the beneficiary of that legacy of an improved strong nose wheel. Just guessing, therefore, that on a previous touch and go the pilot may have subjected it to a very serious side loading (x wind / gusts?) &/or wheel barrow. New to type also? I trust Peter Harlow from Foxbat Australia will be seriously investigating that on this new type.

I already stated I don't buy "The Captain dun it" theory.

Why would he kill 100's coz he was a bit peed off with the politics in Malaysia?

And/or where was his history of insanity, a la the German Wings FO?

I could go on. Suffice it to say - It doesn't have enough evidence to assert such imo. If there is please enlighten me?

I have never supported any conspiracy theories.

However, in this case I suggest we should be considering UMNO racketeers as a possibility.

A well planned suicide operative could have done this - and brilliantly (in a vile way) made it look like it was the Skipper.

And I suggest more than a few wildcard nutters in the UMNO tentacles thought they had good motive to do so.

A bit Hollywood??? ... yea I used to think like that... until 9/11

"Fact can be stranger than fiction" ?

Cheers

Onetrack:

Old galleons would have got blown East with their hull and sail areas easily, for sure.

However with MH370 I think you are assuming that the 777 hull floated.

I doubt it floated at all. Even if it ditched successfully (which is highly unlikely) it would not have floated for long. Hence the currents would surely be the dictator, not the winds?

Would the prevailing currents have brought it to WA, based roughly on the current search area?

Cheers

Yes.....and?

DutchI'm not saying you're wrong just I don't understand why you would make it last 7 plus hours and I have absolutely no idea what has happened.

 

Aldo

How EERIE is that??

DR: Can I pick your brain again please? How long do most 777 pilot oxygen systems last? ... Let's say best case scenario - a 777LR?

I can probably troll thru PPRUNE and find this info but, quite frankly, that site mostly drives me nuts.

Cheers

I agree we should not have a plebiscite - we employ those tossers in canberra to do this stuff. They should grow some balls and make a vote on it.

It is accessible from outside the cockpit. That's pretty much a Boeing thing.

and.. would the pilot O2 bottles be in the same bay?

No prizes for guessing where I'm going with this....

Cheers

Yenn & Litespeed:

Fair enough - I hear you and have empathy for your argument.

However, have you asked yourselves if your loved one(s) were on that aircraft would you have the same stance?

And, are you 100% confident of flying on a B777 again - knowing one has disappeared without explanation?

Fact is it is our 'backyard' and being a rich and (arguably) smart country we should show our empathy, generosity, & expertise.

IMHO we should keep going - like I alluded to, if we can spend $200mill on some dumb plebiscite that makes zip difference to anyone's safety we can spend it alternatively on something that might!

Dutchroll: can u tell me if the 777 electronics bay is accessible from outside the F/D like the 747, or is it like the A330?

I respect many opinions (especially Dutchroll) BUT I just don't buy "The Captain dun it" theory. I won't bore anyone reading this with my reasons why, and what I consider may have happened.

What I would submit here tho is that we MUST MUST MUST keep searching till we find it and find out what did happen!

Sorry to bring politics up but, just maybe, if we stopped wasting $200 mill on some daft plebiscite and put it towards this humanity may be a little better served.

Besides the gay community should have to suffer marriage, and divorce, just like us straights have had to!

End of rant - thank you.... plus tax.

I guess it is appropriate to respond by saying that despite my law-abiding nature and lack of prior convictions, if I had seen an entire wing inflames and knowing it contained large amounts of fuel I think I would have panicked to the extent of opening an emergency exit on the other side if I had been in that row, and probably fighting anyone who tried to stop me. Like the pilot , I might retrospectively been labelled a crazy panic merchant or the bloke whose cool actions saved a lot of passengers, you never know.It isn't about what I think now, or what I wish I had done in retrospect, but how I would react in those few seconds. Some people sit quietly and obey orders, but I think others use their own initiative and experience. It might be described as panic by outside observers but it is self-preservation.

 

And as someone who spent too much of his life on long haul flights I have the greatest respect and gratitude for the cabin staff. Luckily I was never in that situation, just being honest.

Part of our "silent review" check list prior to take-off or landing is to look for a ABP (Able Bodied Person) who we may direct to help us in an emergency. Preferably say, as an example, the civvie you noticed put his Army slouch hat in the locker upon boarding.

However - where your argument falls short is nobody really knows how an untrained person will respond in an emergency. Much research over eons has found that it's often the big boofy gym toned bloke in a tank top will go to water and freeze! Whereas the vertically challenged tiny young girl will be the towering strength and hero!

Furthermore you say on one hand you respect cabin crew and yet you'd punch them on the nose if they didn't do what you reckoned should be done.

Fact is ALL pax should, nee MUST, follow the crew's directives.

Fair enough. No probs.I guess I was trying to say that I'd be very surprised to ever hear a fire crew recommend an evacuation, however they might well pass on info which led to that immediate decision. "Your whole right wing is on fire" would be an example.

 

Talking directly to them is also slightly more complicated than you might think and requires you to use another radio. They generally have their own frequency which you might need to get from ATC depending on where you are.

 

BTW, you are absolutely right in your first post that cabin crew instructions must be obeyed by the passengers!

Overall, I see this accident as one of the most intriguing of recent times (MH370 being THE most ofcourse!)

I wonder what decision was made re evac? Was a decision actually made? - or was it "all berry bad lah" but zip done? Can barely await the report.

Finally, thanks for your support for Cabin Crew - in my experience pax generally have no clue re their training and skills. 6 - 8 weeks training and constant checking - for what?.... how to pour a G&T? doh. CHEERS

It's certainly not the fire chief's call as to whether to evacuate because he has no idea of any other factors the crew are dealing with inside. Also his idea of "one minute" might not actually be one minute, and seconds count in these cases. I've even known a fire tender to go off the taxiway and get bogged on its way to the aircraft.It's a requirement that we practice emergency landings in the simulator regularly. This involves dealing with the problem, running checklists, calling for fire services, communicating with ATC, and making the call to evacuate (or not). Although there are many variables in the way things get done, I've never heard of one running like that. We don't have time in these situations to speculate on and add up the number of seconds various things might take. It's either a dangerous enough situation with the aircraft to warrant an evacuation, or it's not.

Please note I never said the Fire Chief had the call - I said "advised", not "directed". It was just another 'variable" I chucked in. Yup, it's a Captain's call. No argument there (+ gst.)

And fair comment. All I have been trying to say since my 1st post is threefold:

1) The Skipper has to make some millisecond life or death decisions, and unfortunately that is often not the work of a moment.

2) He IS the Captain, and he shall be obeyed, not over ridden by some over opinionated pax, or Johnny come lately.

3) Speculation & debate is great imho - lets do that - but let's not make out like we know better!

Cheers

An uncontrolled exit often causes many injuries and loss of life. So does failure to initiate an evacuation quickly. Welcome to the forum as a participant , Vixen. I await with some considerable interest , the inevitable investigation of this matter. Nev

Having spent about 35,000 hours as Cabin Crew and experienced 1 or 2 near disasters & stacks of incidents, I can say most ATPs are extremely deep thinkers trying to weigh up all the parameters and possibilities, not to mention taking calls & instigating check lists, in sometimes milliseconds. Furthermore, you can have all the procedures in the world but there is often a curved ball thrown in for good measure. They use that EVAC phrase with great caution, knowing there are a million things can go wrong. It's a very brave call.

But for the sake of debate...

If I recall correctly, the Singapore Fire Station is almost slap bang where a wide body stops after landing. They possibly have the best equipment in the world. The only speculation I would therefore make is: The Fire Chief called the Skipper & advised him the whole starboard wing was ablaze & spreading, & they would be onsite in 1 minute, & recommended not to evac.

The pilot may have quickly done the sums - minimum 15 second engine shut down + 90 second evac, with only half the exits available, & chance a crew member may shoot off a starboard slide by mistake, versus wait for the storm troopers who would be 60 secs + 10 sec extinguish.... 70 secs v 105 seconds... waiting for fireies was quicker with possibly less risk.

If the above is correct imagine the outcry if he had ordered an evac (& possible disaster) when he had been advised not to!

Mmmm.. mayb not... maybe they simple stuffed up, but got lucky, and I will have to eat my words.

But as with all airline accidents, we will all be wiser in the long run. Like you, Nev, I await with intense interest.

Seconds count in a fire. I would have been out the emergency exit and gone, punching the flight attendant in the nose if necessary.

1) I hope you are never on 1 of my flights - that's a despicable comment.

2) Being a pilot, you, more than anyone, should know the Captain calls the shots & the crew & pax follow his commands

3) Opening an exit (do you know the procedure & vital precautions to take?) may well have brought the fire inside (a la Manchester)

4) There are numerous procedures & assessments, practiced and tested ad nausea, by tech & cabin crew, that would have been made here

5) Almost EVERY accident / incident is different with all sorts of variables

6) A hasty evacuation may well have been a disaster in this case

7) We must wait - at least 30 days - till the prelim report is published to find out the sequence of events before jumping to conclusions

8) Speculation is fine, but wildly emotive responses & robust comments are inappropriate

9) ALWAYS follow your crew's directives - they are highly trained professionals

10) Mistakes may well have been made, but the bottom line is all survived unscathed (physically) - so it was a success!

mmmm.. that top 10 should do it for my 1st post here! Cheers