Carrying Passengers

I am considering flight training with a view to using a microlight for business purposes.

Does anyone know what restrictions exist concerning carrying of passengers for bussiness/reward using Micro/Ultralight?

Thanks.

Hi Jar Jar

Welcome to the forums

Firstly a microlight/ultralight can be used for business purposes but only if you have a registered business and the aircraft is used by yourself to say for example to be able to get to clients. The costs of owning/running an aircraft can be (notice I said can be) tax deductable but I would strongly recomend you speak to your accountant about that.

As far as using a microlight/ultralight as a business itself i.e. revenue generating then NO it can not be used for business if it is registered with the RA-Aus. It can only be used for pleasure and the only money/reward you can receive is in the way of "shared" expenses i.e. half the cost of fuel etc for a trip.

And finally about passengers, once you have your Pilot Certificate and have completed and passed your passenger endorsement you can then take a passenger with you.

Hope this helps!

Hi Ian

I thought the rules were very strict when it came to hire/reward Flying to a client would nearly fall into the reward catergory, would it not?

If such, only a factory built with level 2or LAMEmaintenence would comply. I don't think there is any room for any ambiguity on that. Of course I stand to be corrected.

Micgrace

No Mike, it doesn't fall under the reward category as to the Tax Dept as it is the same as using your car to drive to a client. As I have posted there are 2 aspects of business - 1. As an expense in conducting business and 2. as an income generating product or service of a business.

An aircraft even under RAA registration can still be considered as an erxpense in conducting business.As in the example of a way to get to your clients you can claim the running costs, finance and depreciation (if applicable). BUT you would need to consult your accountant first as there are certain rules that must be met. I doubt you would be able to claim it as a business expense if the only hrs you were doing were local flights and circuits.

Off to the side a bit if my memory serves me if you have an aircraft online as a business then I think the rule is that it must generate $20,000 per annum of income first before you can claim itin a business and the associated costs.

Hi Ian

I wasn't thinking about that from a business viewpoint. That's fine.

I would strongly suggest a strict legal interpretation of the law concerned by someone well versed in aviation law to be sure. Itpays to be safe in this day and age (legally) I have seen too many adverse legal claims (other people/etc) from current business (finance) that hinge on ONE word to suggest otherwise.

But something that can be a real legal minefield is selling a self maintained/self built aircraft to someone else. As far as I know this has to be tested in court in Australia yet. And reports coming out of the USA say that a waiver is NOT sufficient as it is not signed by the spouse/surviving kids etc.

Micgrace

Fellas,

I have a couple of questions on this subject that I would like answered, sufficient for a pass mark in exam conditions, that is.

1. "You hold a PPL and are employed in another capacity by a company that owns a 6 seat single engined a/c. If no charge is made or remuneration rec'd by you or the company,in what situation may you legally act as PIC?"

2. How would this question apply to a holder of an RA-Aus Pilot Certificate and a company ownedRA-Aus reg'd 2 seat a/c?

Thanks, Paul

Thanks all for your thoughts.

Does this mean that Micro-lights cannot be used for joy flights? Please see http://thegreatoutdoors.com.au/display.php?location=NSW&ID=13201

I am wondering how this type of commercial use of a recreational aircraft is possible?

Thoughts?

Jar Jar

I am not sure about your example but firstly the pilot I am sure would have to have a GA Commercial Pilot licence to begin with. The other question which I do not know the answer on is if the microlight in question may possibly be VH registered if that is possible (for a microlight that is).

May I suggest that if no one else from these forums can answer this then a phone call to the RA-Aus office may be your next course of action. If you do ring the office please let us all know here what the outcome is.

Paul

I am only guessing here (crikey we need Lee Ungerman in these forums don't we) but I would simply say that if you are in the left seat without an instructor giving lessons YOU ARE THE PIC. Whether you are the PIC or not I think has nothing to do with money. Just my quick thoughts!

Gee so many questions and so many simple explanations. No need to ask the office.

I offer the following points and I challenge anyone to prove otherwise with official links and or evidence!

- "TIFS" not JOY flights are valid in a trike. Keep in mind that the trike could have been HGFA registered too and the requirements for instruction are less. Thus in HGFA a pilot with 100 hours can do "TIFS" if approved by the CFI

- One can legitimately run an RA-Ausflight training business that solely operates doing TIFS and making money NOT doing doing Joy Flights - it happens all the time, particularly in tourist areas. Just need to make sure that the TIF paperwork is completed for every flight

- Using your aircraft for Private Work use CAN BE tax deductible and it DOESN'T have to be GA registered. It's treated as if you are driving your private car to work. In fact it's probably just as legitimate if not more legit than a car as you "should" have full log books of your aircraft time. I will be doing this myself next week when I get my tax done (oops, should have done that sooner!)

- Sharing expenses is of course ok as long as it's roughly equal shares

- You don't need to be a level 2 to fly your own private aircraft to or from a customer premises

- Purchasing a homebuilt aircraft with condition report is a waiver in itself. Nothing has happened in legal terms with this yet and is unlikely. Homebuilts have placquards all over them. You'd have to be blind (in both eyes) to miss them

- You work for a company and have a PPL and the company owns a 6 or more seataircraft. YouCAN legally fly it work your workmates onboard for company business. A company pilot for a non-aviation business can fly without a commercial licence. Even the pilot of the Piper Cheyenne III that crashed en-route from Sydney to Benalla was a Private IFR (PPL) pilot on company business with 5 POB. I myself sometimes fly a company aircraft for work with a PPL and company staff on-board; it's sometimes a lot quicker than the alternatives, however as they say "if you've got time to spare, go by air" Without my IFR I'd be grounded on many occasions and that's sometimes hard to explain to my workmates!

- You work for asmall Computer Solutions company and you CAN legally flythe comany's CITATION X on a PPL with workmates and the company CEO (Ian) on-board!

- The above applies for an RA-Aus registered aircraft - although I am prepared to move on this statement

- 6 Passengers is NOT actually the limit for a GA aircraft. It is the limit for passengers when you are COST SHARING. Any more than 6 passengers and the PILOT or company must personally pay ALL costs. Therefore, technically speaking a PPL(A) can fly a privately owned Boeing 747-400 or Airbus A380on an VFR/NVFR/PIFR flight with 400-500 people on board. Scary but true!

I hope this helps to clear up all the questions that you have.

ClemBrown

Hi guys

Heres a site on legal matters as they pertain to aviation in the USA. and by default, here.

It's not very well known fact that lawyers from and and over there practice in each others country. I know of one personally that operates in both countries.

It's only a matter of time before this sort of stuff is tried in Australia. Check out the site map and look for homebuilts and other stuff.

http://www.aviationlawcorp.com

Micgrace micgrace