sseeker Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 Hi, I'm in the process of gathering information about a Skyfox Gazelle for sale at my local aerodrome. The aircraft is for sale for a very reasonable price and together with my Dad I've been thinking about buying it. This would be my first aeroplane. I've been in contact with the owner of the aircraft and he's given me the following info: A/C Recently tidied up All ADs up to date (including most recent one) Full engine and aircraft log books. Been in a few dodgy landings however the undercarriage was fixed by an L2/LAME at Jandakot. ~1450hrs TT engine and airframe. Rotax 912A. Has just started condition reporting the engine (so it doesn't have to be rebuilt) Compression and general wear/tear of engine is excellent, all in very good shape (I've flown and inspected it myself) Airframe has some patches with paint on it but isn't too bad. The A/C is a training aeroplane and will be cross hired to my local flying school. I've already been in touch with the flying school to talk about a cross hire agreement and its been sorted out. I've also prepared a cost sheet and thats been looked over by both the school CFI and the aircraft owner to make sure I haven't missed anything. What other questions should I be asking? What should I be looking for? I have my Dads support behind the whole thing although he doesn't want me rushing into an investment when there could be things wrong with plane. Best to ask as many questions as you can! -Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest davidh10 Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 Pay someone qualified and independent to do an inspection. It will have to be done anyway as part of the transfer if you go ahead and purchase. That will give you a condition report that indicates if there's any work needed. You should be aware that the condition report is not an "airworthy", but never the less it can assist you to evaluate the condition and any work needed or contra-indications with regard purchase. If it had some heavy landings that were enough to break the landing gear, then there could be other damage from the G forces involved. I've seen people buy trikes based on their own unqualified inspection only to find later when someone qualified inspected it, that the base bar was bent (had obviously had a very heavy landing) and it cost them quite a bit to get the factory to replace the damaged parts. If the price is too good. be suspicious. There's seldom benevolence involved in a really low price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sseeker Posted June 9, 2011 Author Share Posted June 9, 2011 Hi, The owner is the L2 at the flying school. -Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spin Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 My only query relates to the time on the engine - can the school use an aircraft that has an "on condition" engine? Provided that is answered in the positive, you need only have a plan in place for the fairly significant cost of an overhaul or replacement, whenever that comes around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sseeker Posted June 11, 2011 Author Share Posted June 11, 2011 In my cost sheet I worked on the figure of $10,000 per 500hrs. Although that's not guaranteed, it's something to work on. What do you think? Do you think $10,000 is too little for an overhaul? -Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 In a hire aircraft, I would think you are better looking at swapping motors. An unreliable aircraft will cripple your cash flow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sseeker Posted June 11, 2011 Author Share Posted June 11, 2011 Hi Tornado, The school pays $80/hr for the aircraft and it costs me $61-$65/hr to operate, that's a $19-$15 profit per flying hour. There's isn't much cash flow involved with that. If the A/Cs not flying, it's only costing me a loan, hangarage & insurance. However the owner has told me that he'd be able to make it fly during the week, which in combination with weekend school flying, it will pay for some of the loan. Also during the week training will be off of a bitumen strip which eliminates the risk of stone damage. By the way, I'm not trying to say because I'm not earning much I shouldn't maintain the aircraft properly. I'm just saying that if it did need an overhaul, it can be taken offline and overhauled without it blowing my budget. -Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 I was actually thinking about it from the school's perspective, a reliable aircraft is a must if you want a low hour pilot flying with confidence. From their perspective, the only reason they could terminate the contract would be reliability. does your contract stipulate the minimum number of hours per month? either as a number or as a percentage of total hours flown by the school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sseeker Posted June 11, 2011 Author Share Posted June 11, 2011 There's no minimum or maximum amount of hours required to be flown by the school. I'd like as many hours as possible as the costs have been laid out and it helps pay the aircraft off. In return it also wears the aircraft out. -Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 sSeeker, You cannot use an aircraft for hire or training with a time-expired engine, period. I maintain a gazalle or two myself as a level 2, and I'm pretty sure your 912A will be a 1200 hour engine. Privatly operated, yes you can operate "on-condition" as long as the manufacturers engine performance tolerences are as recommended. Even then it would be wise to have an experienced L2 with Rotax experience to perform the checks on the engine for monitoring purposes. Aircraft hire or leaseback can be a minefield, especially to a flightschool. Best case scenero would be they really look after your aircraft, fly it everyday making a lot of money, and they actually pay you your share. Worst-case scenero (and unfortunatly more common) is they fly the ring off it, don't take good care off it, and you don't get paid. Then your still left with your loan payments, a more time-exed engine, and a plane in more worn condition. If the situation and individuals involved look good go for it, but tread very carefully my friend. Either way you will need to put a new engine in it for training use, even if it is 'privatly owned'...The potential litagation involved with a first-solo student crashing because of a time-exed engine equipped aircraft, would lock you as the owner away so long, you would forget what an aeroplane even looked like !...The flying school would of course put all liability back on you as the owner, and the one ultimatly responsible by law (both CASA and RAA) as the aircraft 'maintainer'.......................................................................Maj... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 The point of a contract is you both know where you stand, what makes you happy/unhappy. I would go for a set minimum hours per month plus a percentage of hours. Do you want to fly the plane on weekends? you need that in the contract as well. What happens if the plane gets damaged, their damage, your damage? What happens if the insurance doesn't pay? What happens if they are slow to pay? you need to put in the contract the cost of them getting sued by you for damages. Expect the best and plan for the worst Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sseeker Posted June 11, 2011 Author Share Posted June 11, 2011 sSeeker, You cannot use an aircraft for hire or training with a time-expired engine, period. I maintain a gazalle or two myself as a level 2, and I'm pretty sure your 912A will be a 1200 hour engine.Privatly operated, yes you can operate "on-condition" as long as the manufacturers engine performance tolerences are as recommended. Even then it would be wise to have an experienced L2 with Rotax experience to perform the checks on the engine for monitoring purposes. Aircraft hire or leaseback can be a minefield, especially to a flightschool. Best case scenero would be they really look after your aircraft, fly it everyday making a lot of money, and they actually pay you your share. Worst-case scenero (and unfortunatly more common) is they fly the ring off it, don't take good care off it, and you don't get paid. Then your still left with your loan payments, a more time-exed engine, and a plane in more worn condition. If the situation and individuals involved look good go for it, but tread very carefully my friend. Either way you will need to put a new engine in it for training use, even if it is 'privatly owned'...The potential litagation involved with a first-solo student crashing because of a time-exed engine equipped aircraft, would lock you as the owner away so long, you would forget what an aeroplane even looked like !...The flying school would of course put all liability back on you as the owner, and the one ultimatly responsible by law (both CASA and RAA) as the aircraft 'maintainer'.......................................................................Maj... Maj, I asked the L2 this and the engine is a 1500hr engine. (He was saying they came with 1200hr, 1500hr and 2000hr overhaul times as they got better). You're saying that an engine with condition reporting on it can't be used for training? This goes against what the L2 owner has said. I can understand where you're coming from, the aircraft has been cross hired to the school since this L2 owned it. It has been looked after very well. I can't comment on what its been through while students have been flying it solo. The point of a contract is you both know where you stand, what makes you happy/unhappy. I would go for a set minimum hours per month plus a percentage of hours. Do you want to fly the plane on weekends? you need that in the contract as well. What happens if the plane gets damaged, their damage, your damage? What happens if the insurance doesn't pay? What happens if they are slow to pay? you need to put in the contract the cost of them getting sued by you for damages.Expect the best and plan for the worst Tornado, I haven't got anything drawn up with the flying school. I can't get anything drawn up until I own the aircraft anyway. It's not going to be just one school its hired to, it'll be both Bindoon and Northam. TopFun at Bindoon has its own insurance which the school has offered to insure my aircraft with and no idea about Northam. I haven't got that far into it yet. -Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 the contract is the first part of the negotiations. you need the contract in place prior to buying the plane or you will get spanked. trust me on this one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sseeker Posted June 11, 2011 Author Share Posted June 11, 2011 The cross hire isn't what's making me interested in the aircraft. I want to buy the plane, for the plane. Not for the cross hire. So even if after I buy it I get a contract that's not worth committing to, I still have the aircraft. -Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 But if you have got a good contract you are protected, imagine if the plane got damaged and you where required to pay for repairs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 sseeker, I would strongly suggest your L2 check his facts, no you can definitly not operate as a trainer or for hire with a time-exed engine. Even if it is good for 1500 hrs you've only got 50 to play with in the trainer role. Ever wonder why people sell these aeroplanes at this point ?...it's because they don't want to fork out for a new engine ...Call the RAA tech manager yourself if you wish. I'm sure he'll verify the facts for you...........................................................Maj... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sseeker Posted June 11, 2011 Author Share Posted June 11, 2011 Maj I will definitely ask him what he's going on about. If after 50hrs of use the A/C can no longer be used for training, I'm better off buying a Thruster or something. (Something slightly cheaper to purchase/maintain) -Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 you just need to find another aircraft that suits your plan better. there is no shortage of planes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 Don't rush anything either. The longer you deliberate and assess the better the outcome. Most lease situations I've seen end up with a worn out aircraft of dubious reliability. The Best reason for owning your own plane is that you have control of everything. How it is flown and how it is looked after. The one thing that you don't control is the situation in the hanger. If yor ship gets pushed in and out to move other planes it is likely to get hanger rashed. You must have an understanding or your own hanger. Owning your own plane costs more than hire, but it is a special situation worth a bit more for piece of mind. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poteroo Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 The cross hire isn't what's making me interested in the aircraft. I want to buy the plane, for the plane. Not for the cross hire. So even if after I buy it I get a contract that's not worth committing to, I still have the aircraft.-Andrew Andrew - wants v's needs! Cross hiring to a school is a minefield. Owning and operating an aircraft is expensive. It's also expensive to insure - check that your insurer knows the engine will soon become timex. If are buying an aircraft so you can gain experience via plenty of hours - plan on a min of 150-200 hrs p.a. Then you'll own a Gazelle with an engine 'on condition' and they become that much harder to sell. There seems a huge conflict-of-interest in this proposal. happy days, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 sseeker, not trying to burst your bubble, but rather trying to help you out here. I have seen people get caught in the past in similiar fashion. The gazelle, even one with an engine operating 'on condition' makes for a nice personal use aircraft. We have one here with around 1700 hrs being used privately, and it is running just fine. In fact the 912 80 hp is quite capable of giving many more hours than that, if well maintained and operated..........................................Maj... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 sseeker, Additionally the Ultralight aircraft condition report (UCAR) is simply just that. It is an RAA in-house report on the condition of the aircraft generally, for transfer of registration purposes only. It does in no way guarantee the airworthiness of the aircraft, and this is stated on the form itself. Nor is it an indepth, or complete inspection, and it is not designed to be. What a buyer should have conducted on a potential purchase, is a complete pre-purchase inspection, generally best conducted by an Unlimited Level 2 who is familiar with the aircraft type. This would be similiar to a full 100 hourly inspection in scope, and would start with a complete reading of all maintenance and aircraft log books, looking for engine/component histories, and any past damage history that the aircraft may have suffered. A complete and indepth inspection of the airframe for condition and bodgie repairs/maintenance follows, and the engine is given the same treatment with particular emphases given to ADs, Mandatory Service Bulletins,or other special requirements that must be carried out. These may, or may not be applicable to the aircraft, but a full check must be done to avoid getting stuck with unseen surprises down the road....On the Gazzelle for instance there is one CASA mandatory AD which requires the installation of a back-up tube between the wing-strut attach points. There are only two approved tubes kits for this purpose, and it must have one of the two installed. Additionally there must be a record of this mod having been done on file, at the RAA office for that particular aircraft. Without the above, the aircraft is unairworthy by CASA direction, and cannot be operated..You would be surprised to hear that I still encounter aircraft without the required mod, or ones without an approved mod kit installed...................................................................Maj... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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