motzartmerv Posted January 11, 2008 Share Posted January 11, 2008 Ive edited this post and removed the video....I was told by my (knowlagable) CFI that we could carry a child on the lap of a passenger...however he and more importantly I was wrong to do it...I hope any new pilots that have seen this video will visit it again and read these post's ... I am a little dissmayed at my chieff for giving me a bumsteer, but having said that, its MY job as a pilot to know the rules and be current on the ops manual... I hope i havn't caused any impressionable pilots to follow my foolish behaviour.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drifter_driver Posted January 12, 2008 Share Posted January 12, 2008 flying with baby onboard hi moz, can babies be carried on board with two adults in RAA aircraft. may be you or somebody else can shed some light on this. I have a 18 months old daughter and would love to take her with the missus to make some videos cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted January 12, 2008 Author Share Posted January 12, 2008 NO..WE arent allowed to take a kid on the lap....in ga aircraft 2 kids can share a seat as long as there combined weight doesn't exceed 70 kg's...But in RAA its strictly only 2 ppl regardless of age and weight...I have edited this post and will PM drifter driver with correct answer....see my post below... cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Graham Lea Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 I dont think that is the situation at all. If you have PPL, in a VH aircraft etc., the CARS apply and this one is available as a download here in the downloads section. RAA Ops manual does NOT allow any more than 2 people. Fullstop. Aren't you on your way to becoming an Instructor?? :-) My 2 bobs worth.. Regards, Graham Lea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted January 14, 2008 Author Share Posted January 14, 2008 Well, i was only going off what my CFI said when i asked him about it.... My CFI is a GA CFI who also does RAA licencing, but yes, you are right, only 2 ppl in any RAA registerd acft..its quite different for GA but RAA is quite clear about it...un fortunatly i didnt check the ops manual myself, i just trusted the knowlage of my CFI..hmmmmm... And thankyou for your query, yes i am on my way to becoming an instructor, luckily i am not one yet aye?? My appolagies for the missleading post...DONT take your child in an RAA regitsred acft 3 up... cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Macnoz Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 Gee I'm afraid to look at this! I doubt if even first class / business class with a sleeping berth in an Airbus 380 would allow a three year old as a lap passenger. I believe most regulations are 14 days old to 23 months with a weight provisio. you said in a previous post "i sometimes post threads with curley sentimnets to inspire conversation and sometimes debate regarding subjects that some people often have strong views about.." I believe you might have done it again The danger might be that some impressionable novice reads / looks at this and puts all his / hers eggs in one basket ( why does basket case come to mind) Geee I'm scared and I dont scare easily. Check list -- flight controls -- check full and free travel - "honey can you hold the baby out the door or I'll hit it with this stick" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Macnoz Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 well done retracing your steps. I had posted my comments simultaneously as you edited -- sorry -- but well intended. Its reminds me however of how much faith we -- and not just trainee pilots-- can place in the assumed superior knowledge of those in charge of us. I bet you than on reflection you went "huh?' in your gut when he told you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted January 14, 2008 Author Share Posted January 14, 2008 To be honest no i didnt't, as i began my training with this school in GA, i ran into complications regarding the medical, so went to RAA to keep flying...and i did read about the carriage of passengers in the GA sector, and i assumed that it woiuld be similar in RAA....how wrong i was... In the pretakeoff control check he was quite clear of the controls...but on reflection, he could have moved becasue of turbulance or just being a 3 year old squirmer... I appolagise to all members who have read this thread, and especially those newby's that may have gotten the wrong impression of what is allowed in RAA acft... I also removed the video from youtube... In my defence, My CFI is over 60 years old and has had a lifetime of experiance in commercial ops and intructing... I have always taken his tuttaldge as gold and his advice regarding matters such as this as irrefutable.... I will never allow a situation like this to arise again...the rules are all there in black and white and leave little room for missinturpretation..I spoke to the RAA director a few momwnts ago and he is going to clarify things with my CFI... Once again im incredibly sorry guys... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest airsick Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 I dont think that is the situation at all.RAA Ops manual does NOT allow any more than 2 people. Fullstop. Out of curiosity - where in the manual does it say this? I couldn't find it anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Macnoz Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 I suppose he / you would be "ok" as regards control clearence in the centre stick Jabiru -- I wonder - regulation investigation aside if the spirit / intention of regulations for the carrying of pasengers in GA would intend any lap passenger where the passenger would have access to dual control. Ultralight and cross over models aside any two seater GA say Cessana 152 would hardly be a safe environment for a lap passenger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Macnoz Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 I may be wrong but its not as simple as the RAA manual allowing. Gee if it was all we would have to do is have an extraordinary AGM and vote for whomever would re write the manual to allow for four or more skinny pilot / passengers. Amazingly how we all seem to know about the weight constraint -- maybe it’s a reflection of how image conscious we are becoming – but not the other conditions of Section 95.55 (Exemption from provisions of the Civil Aviation Regulations 1988 — certain ultralight aeroplanes) Section 1.6 © the aeroplane is registered with the RAA; (d) the aeroplane has 1 propeller, 1 engine and a maximum of 2 seats; Relevant link from the RAA ops manual is http://www.auf.asn.au/operations/9555.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted January 14, 2008 Author Share Posted January 14, 2008 hmmm..well mabye its not so black and white Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest airsick Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 Section 1.6 © the aeroplane is registered with the RAA; (d) the aeroplane has 1 propeller, 1 engine and a maximum of 2 seats; I can still see the confusion though. For example, in GA 2 children may occupy one seat if their combined weight does not exceed 77kg along with a few other requirements. Likewise an infant (< 3 years old) may be carried on the lap of an adult (again, subject to a few requirements). I can see how it is easy to think that this ruling would extend to RAA aircraft and licences. Not yet holding one of these licences (but hopefully in a few more weeks ;)) I am curious as to where I would find the ruling that does apply in this instance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Macnoz Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 Well lets start with GA. the "provision" to allow more passengers than seats, ie two "kids" combined weight under 77kg or an infant on an adult passengers lap is contained in CAR 5 (1), 54 (1), 138 (1), and 235 (7) and (7A) CAO 20.16.3 paragraph 12.2 (b) Flight manual "Carriage of infants and children 3 This ruling applies only to aircraft subject to paragraph 12.2 of CAO 20.16.3 – that is, those aircraft for which an emergency evacuation demonstration is not required by subsection 15 of CAO 20.11. This ruling deals only with conflict between the maximum passenger capacity stated in an aircraft’s flight manual and the maximum passenger capacity calculated by reference to subparagraph 12.2 (b) of CAO 20.16.3. Nothing in this ruling affects a pilot’s or operator’s responsibilities for proper loading and weight and balance control of an aircraft." Note this clearly defines the category of aircraft that it applies to and I dont see 95.55 or 95.32 in there -- naturally. Further note "Carriage of passengers in seats at which dual controls are fitted 11.1 Except as provided in paragraph 11.2, in all aircraft for which the Certificate of Airworthiness specifies a minimum crew of 1 pilot, a person may occupy a seat at which fully or partially functioning dual controls are fitted if the pilot gives adequate instruction to that person to ensure that the controls are not interfered with in flight and there is satisfactory communication available at all times between the pilot and that person". One might have to come up with a very good arguement to a judge, insurance company or god forbid next of kin as to how you "told him not to turn the magnetos off" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest airsick Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 95.55 and 95.32 aircraft are not required to have an evacuation demonstration by CAO 20.11 subsection 15 so it would apply wouldn't it? Your second point is one worth noting though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Macnoz Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 Paragraph 12.2 is just a further subset of aircraft described earlier in the regulations which at the end of the day do not include the recreational aviation categories. All the regulations aside, and even the recent Britney Spears incident, hands up those of you that would have you infant on your passengers lap in a car complete with lap loop belt while travelling along the highway at 117 kilometres per hour -- the final approach speed in nil wind conditions with full flaps in a Jabiru 160 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted January 14, 2008 Author Share Posted January 14, 2008 Yep..i was confused to, as was obviously my cheiff...Thats why i went straight to the RAA, they said, deffiantly only 2 people per acft...no exceptions.. Are there any rules in this world that are clear??...mabye the 10 commandments...lol...but then again..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drifter_driver Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 wow, looks like we got some spirited answers in last 24 hrs, may be different set of rules for the GA aircraft creating confusion in this matter. any way thanx for the answers folks-the conclusion seems pretty obvious now-two bums max for the RAA aircraft (regardless of bum size) cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest terry Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 Hi drifter driver, you are right and you are wrong. Remember max take off weight. Size does matter. Ha Ha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Longden Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 Good rule of thumb is the number of bums on the aircraft cannot exceed the number of seats. If the passenger is too small for the fitted seatbelt, then a special attachment is used. Personally, Gaffer tape works well...... ;) Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnm Posted January 18, 2008 Share Posted January 18, 2008 Bums on seats True - seats and bums should be equal - as always there are variations Look at overloaded untes in the outback - rolling over. Go to Vanuatu and see where people hang off utes I can remember my Dad saying - in a De Hav Beaver - he flew it - him (the pilot) - the loader driver - a young me in the back behind the hopper - and 3 of my friends - I think thats 6 - theirs only 2 seats in a Beaver - plus the last load of superphophate for the day - completed the last spread and then went home Its all a learning experience to stay on the right side of the regulation JM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now