Gfpt

[welshflyer52]

Hi My name is Steve. I am learning to fly at the Bunbury flying shcool.

 

 

[Guest aviatrix27]

Welcome Steve!

 

 

[Guest David C]

Welcome onboard Steve ... I gather from your thread title that your are learning on GA aircraft ... What type are you learning on ?? ..

 

Dave C

 

 

[welshflyer52]

Hi Dave i dont know if you got my last mesage i am new to computers . I an learning in a cessna 152

 

 

[welshflyer52]

Hi Kaye thanks for the welcome, I am learning in a cessna 152 keep in touch steve

 

 

[Guest David C]

Hi Dave i dont know if you got my last mesage i am new to computers . I an learning in a cessna 152

No I didn't get your message , but that's ok ... The main thing in learning to fly is to enjoy every second . Don't set yourself unrealistic time targets as you will end up stressing out ...The C152 is a great training aircraft , you will have loads of fun .. All the best ..

 

Dave C

 

 

[welshflyer52]

Hi Dave I have sat and passed the BAK theory, I have a lesson on SFL Sunday and then i will be sitting the flight test . Thanks for shareing

 

 

[baumy]

I'm looking forward to doing my GFPT. I turn 16 later in the year, but the issue is money. My parents are not the type to pay for everything for me, and so I'm trying to earn the money which is taking a while. The issue is I don't have a job at all, and do stuff for mum and dad to earn money. The other thing is time management. School commitments, family commitments and school in general are chewing up my time. Anyone have any ideas as to how to go about it? I'm looking to learn at Lilydale.

 

Cheers,

 

James

 

 

[Guest aviatrix27]

G'day James, and welcome.

 

Patience? As a parent, I'm glad your parents are not the type to pay for everything and that you're trying to earn the money. Something to look at is the possibility of a scholarship to help with your training, other than that, all I can suggest is keep earning, and don't give up.

 

 

[djpacro]

baumy, many years ago I was in exactly the same situation as yourself but I'll skip the lecture - instead, just a few things for you to think about:

 

• some years ago I used to take a high school kid to and from Moorabbin Airport every now and then - he would spend the day as a volunteer worker at the museum. He eventually got himself a motorbike and I lost track of him until earlier this year. He is not much older than yourself now. Works as an aircraft mechanic, has his pilot licence ... I'll stop there - just a dream job. Why did the boss select this kid over many other applicants? Why does he get to fly fantastic aeroplanes courtesy of his boss?
   
   
  
• the harder you work the luckier you get
   
   
  
• lots of kids apply for the flying scholarships - competition is very tough. The questions asked will seek out your true strengths and weaknesses. What will be your answers to the tough questions? What have you got to say to demonstrate that you deserve the scholarship over the other applicants? They won't take pity on people - they will select people who show commitment to aviation.
   
   
  
• the harder you work the luckier you get
   
   
  
• what do you want to achieve over the next few years? What can you do to make it happen? Stuff will get in the way but every morning just go back to the answers to those two questions and decide for yourself - what is it you must do this day?
   
   
  
• the harder you work the luckier you get
   
   
  
• I'm still trying to win Tattslotto - seems like an easy way to achieve my remaining goals - but it won't happen will it. The chances of winning Tattslotto are not much different whether you buy a ticket or not.
   
   
  
• the harder you work the luckier you get
   
   
  

 

Good luck, I hope to see you at Lilydale sometime.

 

 

[mnewbery]

I failed my GFPT on Sunday 1 May. It wasn't really a shock and hindsight has suggested that pretty much everything could have been done better.

 

I want to make it clear this has nothing to do with the school or aircraft I used.

 

In short, it wasn't going to be my day. There are countless things I am going to do differently for the next exam attempt. The Authorised Testing Officer (ATO) said that he was only going to test me on the four things that I was deemed "not yet competent" if I re-sit the exam within 28 days. However my new preparation assumes that the next exam will have the following features:

 

1) Full fuel (still actually less than MTOW on this a/c example) which means woeful climb performance and a tendency to re-stall during SSR and approach configuration stall exercises but a duration of 2.0 hours plus 45 minutes holding time. My last exam was cut short to "only 1.6 hours" because we needed to use full rich mix all the time plus a lot of carb-heat and this delivered a planned fuel exhaustion at 1.8 hours with the amount I decanted. While fuelling I thought "hey if we are still flying after an hour, I'm not going to pass anyway" plus I made it _very_ clear to the ATO that I planned and filled for a 1.0 hour flight. Surprisingly the electric gauges read dead empty left and 1/2 full right. Either the company policy on planned fuel burn is pessimistic or the gauges are optimistic. Lessons: If you fly consistently right wing low and do left handed circuits (skidding turns), expect the gauges to deliver unsettling and possibly incorrect news. When planning fuel for GFPT, ensure the endurance is an hour longer than the test, plus holding time of 45 minutes. If that puts you over MTOW, have a chat before you go up and maybe plan to refuel on one of the landings.

 

2) Don't turn up four hours early. If someone is having a GFPT or other test before you on the same day, have the school or ATO call you on the phone just before they call "clear prop". There is nothing worse than arriving for an exam at 9am to discover that someone else turned up at 8:59am, started the exam, stopped it and is going to take two or more hours just to get their training history up to date. Forget the one hour oral exam plus the leisurely 45 minute pre-flight, you're done and your day could well be over if this previous student takes too long. I spent four hours sitting around an airfield grizzling about something that I had no control over and when I finally got back on the ground myself, I needed to already be in another part of the country. Lessons learned: Communicate clearly with the school or ATO how the activities of the day will be timed. Ensure they stick to it or make your apologies and bail out. Its their failing not yours. Alternatively, assume the whole day will be spent on the exam, not just two hours. PLEASE ensure your training history is up-to-date as of the last training flight. Do this well before the day of the GFPT. Book time with your CFI to go through the training history records with you, don't assume its already being done. I have only ever THRICE seen an instructor keep records that were correct within 24 hours of the last flight. The other instructors I've had (and you 10 people know who you are) you suck and you dissapoint me. Once you get the call that the previous GFPT practical is about to start you can make your way to the airfield. In my case its a 70 minute drive unless I'm hiding in my favourite bakery with pie-and-newspaper disguise. Finally, get there first, be the first to do the GFPT and/or knobble the other students so they don't get in your way. I wish I was joking but I'm still quite angry about facing a ~$1K bill for a failed GFPT that I now need to do extra training for. Its all about communication and you are the client, you need to tell people what you are planning to do.

 

3) The exam is not a training flight. The ATO is not an instructor. The ATO will ask you to do things that are not on the exam sheet (CASA Form 640 page 2). The one I got was "trim the plane for straight and level at 70 knots IAS and xyz altitude". WTF? Due to the thermals generated by the freshly ploughed fields and the clouds above, S&L at 70 knots turned out to be nose down +500ft/min, 80KIAS at 50% throttle followed by a swift reversal - 60KIAS, 100% throttle and -100ft/min. In short this proved nothing other than it was a good day for soaring. This activity was distracting, unexpected, hard and concentration sapping. I think this is exactly what the ATO intended. Same exam I got a simulated EFATO at 300ft exactly on the very first takeoff roll. Lessons learned: Expect the ATO to "order something not on the menu" early in the flight especially if you have more than the usual number of training hours up. Focus only on the issue at hand. Its GFPT, there will only be one exercise at a time so focus on that and not the preceeding or next competency. Know your ATO and ask about others' GFPT experience with this ATO. I'm not suggesting that the school should teach you to pass the exam only ... however exam technique should be discussed at length WELL PRIOR to the CFI giving the recommendation. If this hasn't happened yet, don't attempt the GFPT. Its my opinion but I'm giving it strongly as a former driving instructor with an above average student pass rate.

 

For the record I detest being entertainment for the bored individualator. Also for the record the preceeding student passed his GFPT and word was that his exam was totally different to mine.

 

4)Every flight is a precautionary Search and Landing (PSL) exercise. This means you need to be able to point to and identify indications of wind direction ON THE GROUND at every moment. Now those cross country survivors who are still reading are going to say "well duh!" but this is GFPT and not for the licenced, experienced rudder jockey. Speak out loud when you see evidence of wind direction and strength on the ground - for yourself and the audience. Say where you think the wind is coming from and how hard because this will be REQUIRED for your field selection during off airfield PFL/PSL competency. If you don't know the wind direction and strength you will need to waste time finding it. The ATO gave me 12 minutes to choose a place free of livestock, fences, powerlines, trees, wombat holes and long enough to land, then takeoff from.

 

12 minutes? Is this in a book somewhere? Should I already know about this time limit? Or is the ATO making stuff up in the cockpit?

 

I'm torn on the whole PFL/PSL thing and it was identified as a failed competency in the exam. For the record, the ATO (after doing some flying of the type I was strongly discouraged from early on in my training and I'm sure CASA frowns on) pointed proudly to a dead flat paddock which could be seen clearly from the "other" side of the cockpit and said "There! You should have picked THERE!" I looked incredulously at the handful of large black bulls clustered around a water trough at one end and said "I thought you said no livestock". Somedays, you can't win (or see black bulls against a fence). I did three PSLs in a row and I found our later from the CFI (the ATO said) they were all rubbish. Hey fella! At least I can see the bulls!

 

No you don't do off field landings during GFPT unless its a real emergency in which case the ATO will be taking over. If its over private property or people you WILL stay above 500ft AGL and not do steep turns below 1000 ft AGL, even if the ATO does them for you.

 

Lessons learned: Point out all the great off airport places to land and FLY NEAR THEM. With enough trips over the same path or training area you will get to know the best candidate fields. In my case everything is in relation to a prominent and well marked dry lake (name withheld on request). Conversely, don't fly over areas that have very few or unsuitable candidate fields (once again this applies during the exam). Explain to the ATO that this is what you are going to do during the flight, what the wind direction on the ground is and how the wind direction is affecting your choices. Do this well before the PSL exercise starts. Prepare to argue your case. For god's sake have a reliable method of counting out seconds of time close by. More than one. I used the a/c flight timer on the ground and it seemed fine ... right up until the engine started then it changed modes and locked in a way that wouldn't allow counting of seconds. Maybe have a grown-up show you this bit. With PSL, sometimes its just not your day. Reject unsuitable fields at the earliest opportunity (e.g. powerlines anywhere inside the fence), then climb away and do a FULL 360 degree turn, possibly one in each direction. 12 minutes should give you four or five overpasses or its possible to do two rate one orbits in 4 minutes without steep banking. This leaves an easy 8 minutes to do two overpasses or three if the aircraft is slow and can land in under 400 metres. If you really do bollox any competency, just ask to move on to the next one.

 

5) Every circuit is a practical air law exam. Who has right of way? What happens if, on descent you lose sight of the preceeding aircraft (I did) and it might be underneath you, slower and not using its radio (as it was). Your CFI should be able to tell you and you should be able to immediately demonstrate CLEARLY what you are going to do in this situation. In my opinion, CAR 162 suggests that I should have climbed or halted my descent and simultaneously extended downwind AND made a radio call noting I was uncertain of the other aircrafts' positions plus my intentions. Another "duh". I was 10 seconds too late plus after 1.1 hours of exam pressure I was beginning to lose concentration.

 

Lessons learned: The pressure only goes up during the exam, especially if the circuit area is congested and circuits are at the end of the GFPT. Remember you've done 0.2 hours basic IFR by this time too. Have mucho spare mental capacity to allow timely responses to (yes its exam criteria 8.5) "manage abnormal situation" or the ATO will manage it for you. This is why YOUR pre-GFPT lessons need to be at least 1.6 hours because even a well run 100% pass GFPT can go for 1.5 hours (usually due to rubbish climb rates). Yes its expensive but so is failing the exam, then resitting it.

 

Nobody died. It could have been different.

 

6) Every circuit is a pre-solo exam, every circuit is a candidate for engine failure practice. Lessons learned: Spacing, spacing, spacing. Identify and correct spacing errors ASAP. Identify and correct heading errors ASAP. Ensure that where it is operationally possible to fly from either end of a runway, you can identify landmarks for both runway directions that give you correct spacing while airborne and use them. This is not cheating, its good preparation for the GFPT exam.

 

Other stuff in my opinion:

 

Get and take a copy of CASA Form 640 with you. Have your instructor go through the complete list during at least three consecutive lessons. I suggest that the instructor pretends to be his or her favourite ATO. If you don't get 100% satisfactory on the third exam practice (we are talking the whole exam at 1.5 hours, three times over but i'm going to do 1.6 to 1.8), work on the weaknesses identified. Then have another practice exam - it doesn't count unless you are 100% competent in end-to-end exam conditions. Yes it sucks and I hate it but I also hate driving for two hours there and back to fail an exam (or to be grounded due to changed conditions).

 

Now if you are waiting to turn 16 years old, still reading this and totally discouraged by the thought of having to come up with a thousand or so dollars to cover the cost of the GFPT pre-exam for the CFI recommendation plus the plane hire plus the exam itself (which benefitted the ATO $550 in my case), think about this:

 

Its the cheapest flying practical exam you will ever do.

 

 

[Richie]

hello mnewberry

 

just joined up here and strolling through some threads and saw this one. Bad luck on your test, your post was a few weeks ago so hopefully you have passed it now. There seems to be some confusion on some things (which maybe you also understand better by now). But if not, some parts of your post got me scratching my head which I would like to raise

 

In regard to the fuel, not sure what aircraft you were flying but sounds like you have your hands full if it finds it hard to climb with full fuel and 2 people. It is perfectly reasonable of you to ask how long you should plan the flight for, and unreasonable of them if they are unwilling to tell you. After all as a pilot in command it would be foolhardy (not to mention illegal) to take off with out knowing the planned flight time so you can ensure sufficient fuel and reserves

 

not sure what you mean by a re-stall, do you mean stalling a second time after recovering from the first stall - if so this sounds pretty scary and shouldnt happen, so I'm guessing you mean something else

 

bit rough of your school not to be able to give you a solid test time, tests put you under enough stress as it is

 

unfortunately for you it is pretty important to be able to hold straight and level - again not sure of your aircraft but it sounds very light and seems like you had a big job on your hands - this is actual quite simple in something a bit heavier.

 

what really concerned me with you post is there seems to be some serious confusion in regard to the difference between precautionary search and landings, and forced landings. What you have described seems to be some sort of mix of the two

 

- A forced landing is an emergency situation, one where you would be giving a mayday call. Classic example is a complete engine failure. This is where you land where you can as you have no choice, as you seemed to describe - identifying wind, picking a field long enough and flat enough (with no bulls hehe). The only objective here is for you and your passengers to be able to walk away from the aircraft (you most certainly would no be worrying about whether you can take off again).

 

- a precautionary search and landing is not an emergency (it may be to prevent an upcoming emergency - low fuel, bad weather etc). It would generally be an airstrip that you are not sure about and needs to be checked out. eg you plan to fly to a strip you havnt been to in a while and you cant get strip information from anyone )as legally required to do if not certified or registered in ERSA, then it would make sense to do a prec search and landing (you would also need enough fuel to an alternate BTW), This would be your fly down the strip at 500ft and 200ft to ensure approach and go around is ok, strip distance is timed to make sure it is long enough and that no one has dug a hole in the runway or no cows on runway etc. In other words to make sure it is safe and legal to land. Other reasons to do them might be low on fuel or bad weather etc and an unfamiliar strip is near by. If you have to land in a field that doesnt meet the requirements of a aeroplane landing area as described in CAAP 92-1 then it probably needs to be considered either illegal or an emergency (mayday call).

 

Gets tricky when you start talking about fields that are clearly not meant to be a landing areas but you can be satisfied of safely landing as per CAAP 92-1 (which is just advisory and doesnt legally have to be followed BTW). But I guess if it is unplanned and is not an airstrip I would be inclined to call it in as an emergency (you dont want to be stuck somewhere, injured with a busted radio and no one looking for you)

 

in my training/tests a PFL was generally done by the instructor suddenly pulling throttle to idle and calling out "engine failure". Prec searches would normally be done by being told a scenario .eg "there is some really bad weather we are flying into and you dont have enough fuel to return to your point of departure"

 

Again hope you have got it all passed by now, still extremely young so lots of time up your sleeve, I have not long got my CPL which I quit my job at 38 and spent the last couple of years getting it.

 

As a side note a GFPT really should just be a test of your basic flying skills and knowledge, seems they may have been a bit harsh with some aspects (although S&L flight is a must). BTW I never did my GFPT, there is no legal requirement for it, you can just keep going on to PPL (you just cant enjoy the privileges of the GFPT - passengers mainly)

 

another side not -dont be too disheartened at failing you test, took me a couple of cracks at the PPL and CPL

 

 

[Richie]

wow, jsut noticed his post was a year and a few weeks ago haha, well I guess it is all really old news now

 

 

[mnewbery]

Thanks for the reply Richie. I have considered it carefully. I agree with the comments in general. I note that a PSL activity and a PFL activity overlap at some time if one considers the idea of an engine-out landing from 5000' AGL. In my training I have done more abnormal procedures practice than anything else. No doubt I will do some more as I keep adding more type endorsements.

 

Also, training types are meant to be only marginally stable in pitch and roll, with no cockpit rudder trim. Also, tiny fuel tanks really test out your cross country trip planning. The issue I had was that we did climb after climb, burning 9gph. Planned consumption at correct leaning was 7.5 gph. Tell me how to do this in your head while doing an exam, knowing that while you are doing it the ATO will get handsy with the avionics and/or engine controls to check your error management:

 

You have 75 litres of useable fuel. You have just climbed to 3000' AGL while under a cloud. It's taken 7 minutes. You set correct lean and 75% power for a straight and level procedure. The examiner calls the first of three PSL activities, each of which take a different amount of time to climb back up to 1000' AGL. The he calls SSR from 3500' AGL. A pair of steep figure eights are thrown in and we return to the circuit. On the way back you do BIFR and UA, vectoring in a big zigzag to arrive at the correct height. This is done full rich because of the amount of climbing. Metal is coming off the mixture control shaft because it keeps getting overused.

 

You have been in the air for 1.1 hours and your alternate field is a controlled airspace 40nm away, to the south. Wind is variable SSW at 15G25. You can be there in a minute or two more than 30 minutes if you leave now and accept no delays from the controller

 

After your first touch an go, at 1.6 hours, another aircraft stops on its roof at the runway intersection. Ambulances arrive, closing the airfield.

 

What do you do?

 

Is this fair for a GFPT student to consider?

 

I have my own opinion

 

 

[Richie]

well mnewbery, you seem to have very good understanding of your aircraft and seem to be able to manage the aspects of a flight without any problems. Your original post was a year ago are you still on GFPT?

 

must be hard dealing with very tight fuel management issues - what aircraft are you flying?

 

still disagree with you of the PFL/ PSL thing although there will always be grey crossover areas. A complete engine failure at 5000 ft is still a forced landing, a complete engine failure at 30,000 ft is still a forced landing ie you are forced to land and it is an emergency

 

were those GFPT questions one or two seperate questons? bit confused, how can you have variable SSW? - it is either coming from a certain direction or it is variable, thing to watch out for for that type of question is the G25 (is that supposed to be enroute or AD f/cast) which is likely over your Xwind limit for your aircraft if coming across the runway (1 or 2 runways on alt). fuel not a problem if started full.

 

As for the closed strip land somewhere nearby if no one is able to tell when strip will be open

 

Not an unreasonable question for GFPT, not an instructer and not familiar with syllabus but everything like that if applicable for a test question they should have covered with you at some point prior to test (no point testing someone on subject matter that has not been taught)

 

Again GFPT is just a general progress flying test. Can you fly the aeroplane, do understand flight rules, can you manage a basic flight, are you able to demonstrate an understanding of the procedures should an emergency or an unplanned flight condition occur, was there any doubt of a safe outcome of the flight. Seem like you have no problem doing any of that

 

hope you are enjoying your flying (at least the non test stuff) :)

 

 

[mnewbery]

On the weekend I completed enough of my flying training to get an RAAus licence with x-country endorsement. I also got signed off to fly a cutlass (c172rg) in the student training area. It feels lke now I have pre-ppl type ratings for nearly every Cessna 172 model made since 1977 plus C150, A150, Tecnam P2008LY, Gazelle and even some G1000 time.

 

So in answer to your question, what aircraft was I flying? I'm not sure it matters. If it was a Gazelle, I'd land in some farmer's lane or the bit of the runway that wasn't covered in people and gore. C150 or A150, use a Lucerne paddock or taxi way after a radio call to everyone on the ground. For everything else, I'd not be worrying about fuel because it would take me less than 45 minutes to get to my alternate. I would just go there. This is what the fixed reserve was meant for.

 

The point is to have the idea in your head before you start the mission, discuss it and agree on it with the owner/instructor/examiner/other pilot before you start the engine. I did all this on the day of the exam. After 1.6 hours I was sure we needed to get landed because we were getting close to not having the alternate as an option. If the examiner wanted to continue embarrassing me he could do it after I stopped for gas. If I stopped for gas I would top it up to 75 Litres again. This is what I told the examiner before we started the engine.

 

That was my choice and I would make the same one again.

 

As far as the wind was concerned, it was not an issue until we flew lower than the nearest mountain. How can you have variable SSW wind? Easy, sometimes it's south and sometimes it's southwest. The point was, we really didn't know with any certainty where we would run out of gas. But we knew that we knew.

 

The only thing more dangerous than

 

One pilot with a Phillips head screwdriver is

 

Two pilots flying an aircraft

 

Please laugh now?

 

 

[68volksy]

I think the very simple and correct answer for GFPT for the above scenario would have been "wait until airfield clears or conduct Precautionary Search and Landing". Hard to believe your school has led you to believe you're capable of even thinking of performing navigation exercises without any maps or planning when you haven't even passed the GFPT!

 

 

[mnewbery]

I have carefully considered your statement above. The bit of context that is missing is that for everyone who ever learned to fly from Canberra, we knew that the company rules were to be able to fly to an alternate (the alternate), logistically as well as physically, at all times. That meant a map, a fixed reserve, dual instruction during the flight or at least one dual nav completed.

 

Having YSCB closed without notice due to an accident wasn't unheard of.

 

Getting back to the exam, everyone associated with it knew I was more than capable of flying to an alternate including controlled airspace if required and authorised, as was the plane. This is why it was discussed as an option before the exam. Remember, the ATO could have taken control too, on request. Even for local flights, my school has VTC maps that will get you to an alternate in every one of their GA and RA aircraft. Plus they all have transponders.

 

 

[68volksy]

There are just too many factors to consider before planning a navigation exercise. Weather details, fuel planning, wind calculations, end of daylight - it's not something that's just done on the spot in my view.

 

A school to have a policy that sends it's pre-GFPT students off on a navigation exercise with only a map and one nav complete due to a shut runway sounds a little off in my view. It sounds like the ATO might know the school you're at or its CFI if he's asking such a specific question - probably catches a few of their students out with the answer. Any ATO would take a very dim view of anyone (let alone non PPL pilots) being taught to conduct unplanned navigation exercises. I'm pretty certain the ATO would have been looking for "conduct a Precautionary Search and Landing" as the answer in this instance. Your experience would be irrelevant to the ATO as they have a very simple list of questions they ask and the answers that a GFPT student should give them.

 

I'm very concerned at the thought that a pre-GFPT student is taught they are capable of performing a navigation exercise. Even a full PPL holder would baulk at the choice of flying an unplanned nav.

 

 

[mnewbery]

Refer CAR 5.66 CAR 5.69 and CAR 5.71. Navigation exercises have nothing to do with passing GFPT or not, is my understanding. Plus I previously stated that the alternate was discussed and agreed on, therefore planned, prior to the practical exam starting.