Russ

“Just west”……bloody long way west.

”bluewaters”….much closer to town, and operator helpful

Chap central coast Qld, has been running a mercury engine for yrs now in his gyro, goes like the clappers, has an exhaust note that catches your attention, last I heard he has never had issues.

gyros have been running soob engines ( several models ) for decades now, EA81 was the beginning, up to EJ25’s, all reliable……ALL heavy

Many FW flyers are running the 6cyl soob, there is a dedicated FB group of these guys

Thanks guys….appreciated. It’s avgas periodically when mogas unavailable. Wasn’t sure avgas ok……again thanks

Query……can you SAFELY run a 912uls on avgas…

Still have it. ( cost me $4000 + ).....its gathering dust.

Many of the maxi yachts no longer have mast stays, with the power in those sails, the masts manage it.....amazing

49 minutes ago, Jase T said:

OK I can speak to this one as I have both done and taught Autos.

 

To a large extent it will depend on the instructor, aircraft and insurance!! I cant speak to an R-22 as I have never flown one but the B-206+ and 205 are fantastic for it and hold a lot of rotor inertia through the initial and flare and give you lots and lots of cushion. I would imagine the little Robbies would be a lot more sensitive to RRPM changes with a tendency to overspeed on  entry and in the flare and would run out if you were a little high. Some dont like doing them as you will be doing a run-on landing  so there is risk if not perfectly straight. It takes a LOT of practice and recency to remain confident! 200' seems a little odd though, surely you can have the power back in and still be in auto fly the Flare, the initial and terminate to the hover instead of running on? Not current anymore so dont know current practices.. 

22’s never ever full auto to ground, never. Low inertia blades dont give much room for error, if any. 44’s heavier blades good, but rare to find instructor / company that will allow auto to ground. There must be some around the traps that do auto somewhere. 

Heard the 206 etc can auto to ground and then lift again and rotate 180........that’s impressive ...

16 minutes ago, old man emu said:

Please explaaaain.

98.4%  (-:    of incidences are weekend worriers, total hrs per yr less than 50. 

The musterers log up 100’s +, running out of fuel pops up, blade strike on them pesky trees comes up, the flick and bank rarely comes up.

14 hours ago, waraton said:

Adding to the explanation by Russ

 

 

 

Like fixed wing and stalling in the circuit,

“Stalling in circuit” ?????????you’ve got me there, ???

4 minutes ago, old man emu said:

So when we hear of a gyro crash, it is very likely to have been as a result of a power pushover during mustering operations?

Nope, nar, hell no

25 minutes ago, old man emu said:

Russ,

Can you answer these two queains?

 

What is the cause of loss of control whilst airborne?

What's a power pushover?

Ok......power push over.......you’re on a powered nose high climb, and you shove stick forward to commence a descent. The gyro will pendulum at a point at that roll over and the rotors will strike the tail...game over. 1 alternative is.....power off, EASE stick forward, so you gently roll over, over she goes then commence descent in the normal safe way. there are several ways to go from hard climb to immediate descent, but i won’t explain here, it needs to be hands on with suited instructor, don’t want a pilot reading here, and going out to give it a try.

loss of control........mechanical failure of some kind, pilot seriously stuffed up and was unable to gain control.....hard question to answer, sorry 

15 minutes ago, facthunter said:

ALL ultra lights have  horror stories "THEY" conjure up OUT THERE. Nev

Correct.....they conjure up, mostly exaggerated or false

9 minutes ago, facthunter said:

Why would a blade NOT bend when the airspeed is so varied along it's length? ALL things behave as if they are rubber.  Spacey I don't think I've asserted they are particularly unsafe  and can fly unpowered or with tail rotor failure, in the case of a heli..Nev

They do, they “cone up”

11 minutes ago, spacesailor said:

They say,

Trikes, hang gliding & powered parachutes,  have the same Deadly accident rate !.

Just the same as motor bikes.

Do we take any notice.

spacesailor

Who’s “they”.........lots of “stories” get spread out there, some are true, many false, many exaggerated.

@ wara ........i heard asra had abandoned a vital service ( forum etc ) why ???? It’s just crazy logic. Folks lurking / seeking info have lost a great service.

The “HF” is another strange logic, new faces onto committees etc can bring crazy ideas sometimes. asra began a strange pathway about 10yrs ago, has resulted in many members being disappointed. 

Safety has always driven asra, and thats a good thing, instructors are regularly assessed to maintain standards, thats another good thing.

The cost of some machines blows me away, almost half the cost of a half decent 44 with good hrs to run.

At fact.........Blades have an infinite life, the hub bar is the worker, hence they must be crack tested ( X-ray or dye penetration ) every 500 or so hrs, or whatever the manufacturer states, could be even more / less. 

Blades........the system is a “teetering” system, they tilt left / right whatever, the retreating blade balances the advancing blades lift to give a perfectly balanced inflite operation. Gyros generally have a VNE of less than 90kts, so this teetering system is fine with that, 100% ok. If gyros were to get to much higher speeds then the rules change, matters like retreating blade stall and other dark matter comes into play ( go googling for info ) So gyros are powered  / designed to never get to the higher extremes. 

Sorry got carried away....also meant to say.......”they do not get out of balance” they’re singing along teetering up/down creating a perfectly functioning platform, the pilot has no control whatsoever on this operation, it is self managed within the system design.

Comparing gyro design / training etc, from yester yrs to now, is comparing chalk to cheese. One European makers machines are IFR night rated, will never see the light of day in australia, casa would baulk.

”Crazy palm tree”....never heard that analogy before, but heard lots of fictional / untrue comments over the yrs, lots of them. 

Yen......the golden rules.....dont do power push overs, dont introduce purposing, don’t rush your blades ( startup )

Blade flap.......gee how to simplify it, here goes.......at very low rpm as your taxiing to get blades to flying speed, if you rush the blades, the advancing blade generates too much lift to allow the retreating blade to teeter enough to balance that lift, that retreating blade hits it’s stops whilst that advancing blade is still teetering up, then things get nasty. Blades over flex, the power building there is massive, it starts to break things and worse........so don’t rush the blades at low rotations, easy does it, as they gain more rpm add on more power, then more power etc, training will teach you the tell tale signs of how “to manage your blades”.....it’s not hard at all, remember your trainings. Most machines these days have a type of “prerotator”, elec or belt driven etc, this has been a huge plus for gyros. Some systems get the blades to just under flying speed, bloody brilliant. Get blades absolutely honking, brakes full on, release brakes, full power, your airborne in just a few metres, some guys get off in 20m every time.

Losing rotor speed.....without airspeed your blades automatically are starved of lift, they slow you sink, thats normal. they never slow to dangerous never, impossible, they are now getting a reduced feed of air as you sink. Pushing stick forward is the norm to regain some airspeed, 100% safe,normal. Add on power and off you go again. The prime controller of height is power, the prime controller of attitude / speed is stick, combine the 2 ( power,stick ) in your action, all’s good.

With experience a half decent pilot can do a 180* turn in the length of the machine, even a 360*. Again same pilot can “load up blades” and hover for a time in and around trees etc. Gyros can easily sucker some pilots into manoeuvres etc that are beyond that pilots capabilities......but absolutely doable. 

The available windows of operation is often the undoing of an unwary / low skilled pilot. 

No...they don’t “stall”.....pull off power to zero airspeed, blades no longer able to sustain current height, machine now vertically descends, keep a tad of rudder to stop rotating, and down you sink ( vert drops ) safe as, but not desired landing procedure, machine will bounce on ground, likely to then roll on ground, plus bend undercarriage etc etc.

Mindset is different in a gyro.....you must be saying “ can i take off from there”......you can almost land a gyro anywhere. This mistake by pilots is not uncommon, they’ve landed and realise they’ve got problems getting off again, too short, too rough etc etc, so they “have a go”, they “rush” the blades to get to flying speed, they stuff up good training procedures, they “flap” blades etc, and it all turns to shit. 

“Dead stick” landings are taught and easy, pull off all power, drop nose to maintain a nice airspeed, say 40...50 ish, manoeuvre as required to get onto a “final” then finals you go, easy as. If......your too high, just reduce airspeed and vert drop as required, then again rebuild airspeed to proceed to touchdown.....easy as.

The vast majority of gyro stuff ups are pilots not doing as they were taught, they get too complacent they get cowboyish,  they might get away with that at times, but it will one day bite them. Blade management is seriously taught, do all the right things, and gyros are a hell of a machine, love shit air, stable as, widely used by grazing industry, cheap to run and maintain. Many many gyros embark on epic trips, they just dont make a song and dance about it.

Auto rotations are a requirement of training, but many, if not all insurance co’s will not cover helo if damages are auto related. So training is up to the last bit before touchdown, its the touchdown bit that student really needs to master, especially when you have low inertia blades. Air speed with exact flare, then settle. Gets the pucker valve working.

A little off topic, but....Yet to find an instructor that will teach full auto rotations to full stop on ground in a helo. Sometimes i wonder if they can actually do it themselves. Most power up 100....200ft AGL, if not higher.

“Ivo” magnum, done 3hrs max. Complete, all the goods ex factory. Was trialed on a gyro....machine too slow for benefits. Ivo say it’s also suited for 6 cyl jab, run 2 blades ( speak to Ivo ) moding easy as, or they will do it minimal cost. $2000 delivered oz

15 minutes ago, RossK said:

631kg in a 540kg rated plane is something i would not admit to on a public forum.🤐

Not something I would do either 😬

“You wouldn’t do”....i have, would do again. The jabs are way under specked. I have no problems openly admitting that. My confirmation person said “ if it gets off the ground it will fly no problems ) and it did. Takeoff took longer, climb was slower, nothing else changed. Boo Hoo as hard as you like, doesn’t bother me. The fact remains, jabs are under specked. “Rules” ......we are all guilty of breaking those in life’s journey

We’ve done a full lap coastal, and a top end half lap. A jab 160 can be packed to the ROOF, has great legs, cumfy. Would do it again in a blink. Have only encountered jabs doing the same epic trips ( RAA ) he jab handles shyte great, handles ruff strips. Downside.......you want to do it again and again. Buried in there is 2x10L fuel,10L water, tent,air beds,bedding,clothes,cooker,food plus plus. ( 631 kg ) and it flew beautifully. ( took a while to get off the ground tho ) Rang a chap to get advice re “that weight” he said “no probs at all”.... so there you go. The specs are grossly under estimated.

Burke and wills roadhouse 2pm ( heat thermals ) blowing a Gale Xwind over range alongside strip. Pucker stuff

The Alaska thing, lots of it, the more remote the better, and some hairy landings to boot.