naremman

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When the RAAF took the CT4 on board it was not too long before a restriction on convential spinning came into effect. That restriction did not preclude inverted spinning, so guesss what happened?

My understanding is that Vne is mainly governed by the aircraft's susceptibilty to flutter, which is a function of airspeed and the natural frequency of essential parts like tail components. The natural frequency is a function of geometric and material properties and won't change with age, but age related fatigue (ie stress cycles) may affect the strength of the airframe parts.rgmwa

Tiger Moth Vne 139nots. only achieved in the vertical down with full throttle.

The then young instructor who taught my Dad to fly, who is now a Cathay B747 driver, always used to refer to Vne as: "very near the end"!!

I can see a YKOK pinpointed on my Google Earth but can't see anything that looks like a runway. Where is it reference the "town"?

A good number of years ago I can remember aero clubs heading there for flying visits.

I also recall the then CFI of the Kalgoorlie Boulder Aero Club who would do the odd charter to Kookynie for one of the many Goldfields characters, so he could have a weekend bender in glorious isolation. The strip must have been OK then as the charter used a Baron.

Whilst the town may well be quiet now, there in no shortage of mining activity in the area

Has anybody checked out the Grand Hotel at Kookynie recently? Where is Kookynie you may well ask. North of Kalgoorlie.

Our local GP has his parents from the UK visit him annually, and a few years ago we flew them to Leeuwin Estate Winery for lunch, which they throught was tops. The equivalent of Southampton to Paris for lunch!!

Thought lunch at the Grand Hotel, and then down to afternoon tea at The Palace Hotel in Kalgoorlie might be appropriate for a very English couple, Certainly a contrast to Leeuwin!!

Have enjoyed flying into Brown Bros twice. Just the place to stock up on emergency water for a cross Nullabor trip. Reason that if we have to wait for a rescue we may as well enjoy it, and after successfully negotiating the Nullabor without the need to resort to emergency water, we had the bonus of enjoying some of Milawa's best.

As an Angel Flight pilot and Volunteer Ambulance Officer with St John Ambulance WA living in the bush, I view this as an incredibly sad set of circumstances, alround.

I have seen first hand the benefits of Angel Flight, and to have completed 11000 incident free missions up to this point is testimony to the emphasis on safety that Angel Flight has always operated with. Angel Flight comes with bucket loads of commom sense, and we all know how rare that commodity is these days. It is inevitable that Angel Flight will come under scrutiny. The contribution that Angel Flight has made to those living outside the major cities must never be understated. The stark reality is that most medical specialities reside in the major cities. If you are are in the bush and you require these services, no question, you travel, by whatever means. What contribution has Angel Flight made to those 11000 patients, and their families, to convey stressed and tired people who would otherwise be on the road, or dependant on public transport, should it exist in the bush?

Last week I had a very good friend in my country town who is undergoing chemotherapy in Perth travel both ways with Angel Flight for treatment. In the West we are having a winter that by memory we would consider normal, but we have not seen too many of them over the the past decade. On the day of the outgoing flight, when the fronts came through even the ducks were walking, and we are are in open wheatbelt country. The AF pilot drew on many years of experience and managed to safely land here, just before we got another healthy addittion to the raingauge. A good number of cups of tea later, and a call to muggins for a locals perspective, he was able to safely deliver his passenger to Jandakot, complete with many diversions and slogging into a 30 knot headwind. A whole day tied up to deliver one passenger safely. With the great support that Angel Flight now receives, at the least the fuel used on the trips is covered. Bruce you typify all that Angel Flight stands for, and the great thing for Angel Flight is, that you have many mates.

There will be many processes that will have to be worked through following this tragic accident, as is appropriate. Bill Bristow, stand by the vision that you had in 2003. Nobody in the health field sets out to do further harm to a patient, but in this undeniably sad time, keep your perspective, and don't loose sight of what has been achieved thus far.

Learning to fly in a two seater with an instructor is onboard usually means that MTOW in not too far away.

Remember when the instructor jumped out and all of a sudden you were in charge of a far more lively performer?

In the GA environment pilots learning in a C172 or Warrior with half tanks will invariably get a hell of a surprise when they try a Full Load check. Yes, it is the same aircraft that you trained in.

There is no better demonstration of the effect of weight than in formation flight. Many moons ago I trained for my formation endorsement at Northam with a friend who had a Jodel DR 1050 Sky King. My Victa Airtourer 100 and the Jodel were well matched at the same load, but a variation of as little as 50lbs gave the lighter aircraft a noticeable advantage. Before we went for a training run we used to scout through the aero club trying to con onboard the most likely person that would even our weight out!!

On this site you oft see quoted: "Don't take an aeroplane anywhere that you mind did not visit five minutes ago". Rolling onto final all the variables for the landing should already be factored in. Reacting to surprises on final does not always produce sound results!!

Good to see one airworthy example still flying and working. Not a bad problem to have when you have paddocks too wet and you have to call in the Aggies Powerin. It has finally got around to raining over here in the West this year and last week had an Agwagon flying off my all weather strip spreading urea for a neighbour.

I recall flying into Northam in the 80's and an Airtruck and an Army GAF Nomad were parked together. Parking my Victa Airtourer alongside them presented the trifecta of Australian designed and built aircraft from the 60's and 70's. Aesthetics were hardly the strong point of all three designs, and all three aircraft had the capacity to have some pilots to swear by them, and then the others to swear at them!! For such an aviation friendly country what a pity it is that Australia is so notable for not developing a vibrant aviaition industry.

On the topic of unusual Ag aircraft, when I was learning to fly in the early 70's I shared the airspace around Bruce Rock with:

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What a sacrilege to a perfectly good Chippie. The addittion of pump and spray booms did nothing to enhance things, and the margin of safety was probably scant.

It was flown by an ex RAAF pilot John Turner who had to make the transition from Sabres to dodging trees and slipping under power lines in the old Chippie. It was a bit of a love/hate relationship between aircraft and pilot, and after a few years John outlasted the old girl and graduated to a Pawnee. In the 70's the only chemical that was sprayed out in volume was 24-D Ester, which went out at the rate of 4 ounces an acre. The hopper of the Chippie was not large, but a little bit of Ester went a long way. Luckily it was before the advent of Lupins and Canola, which will curl up and die at the slightest waft of Ester. In the days before GPS marking, there was a human marker at either end of the paddock with a flag, who just before the aircraft passed by paced out the swath width, waited for the pilot to survive the proceedure turn, raised his flag, and at the last second hopefully repositioned himself before the aircraft and sprayed chemical caught him. OSH? Whats that!!

I notice that BCA is still on the register, so it is good to think that it survived the harsh environs of aerial agriculture.

I am sure Poteroo will make a significant contribution to this post, and I look forward to his pearls of wisdom with keen anticipation.

Good to see one airworthy example still flying and working. Not a bad problem to have when you have paddocks too wet and you have to call in the Aggies Powerin. It has finally got around to raining over here in the West this year and last week had an Agwagon flying off my all weather strip spreading urea for a neighbour.

I recall flying into Northam in the 80's and an Airtruck and an Army GAF Nomad were parked together. Parking my Victa Airtourer alongside them presented the trifecta of Australian designed and built aircraft from the 60's and 70's. Aesthetics were hardly the strong point of all three designs, and all three aircraft had the capacity to have some pilots to swear by them, and then the others to swear at them!! For such an aviation friendly country what a pity it is that Australia is so notable for not developing a vibrant aviaition industry.

On the topic of unusual Ag aircraft, when I was learning to fly in the early 70's I shared the airspace around Bruce Rock with:

What a sacrilege to a perfectly good Chippie. The addittion of pump and spray booms did nothing to enhance things, and the margin of safety was probably scant.

It was flown by an ex RAAF pilot John Turner who had to make the transition from Sabres to dodging trees and slipping under power lines in the old Chippie. It was a bit of a love/hate relationship between aircraft and pilot, and after a few years John outlasted the old girl and graduated to a Pawnee. In the 70's the only chemical that was sprayed out in volume was 24-D Ester, which went out at the rate of 4 ounces an acre. The hopper of the Chippie was not large, but a little bit of Ester went a long way. Luckily it was before the advent of Lupins and Canola, which will curl up and die at the slightest waft of Ester. In the days before GPS marking, there was a human marker at either end of the paddock with a flag, who just before the aircraft passed by paced out the swath width, waited for the pilot to survive the proceedure turn, raised his flag, and at the last second hopefully repositioned himself before the aircraft and sprayed chemical caught him. OSH? Whats that!!

I notice that BCA is still on the register, so it is good to think that it survived the harsh environs of aerial agriculture.

I am sure Poteroo will make a significant contribution to this post, and I look forward to his pearls of wisdom with keen anticipation.

naremman

The MVP accident was in 2003. That ATSB report is fairly recent and only very recently has action been taken to issue a temporary revision to the Flight Manual (not all models of Airtourer) from 1.3 litres to 20 (approx, I haven't seen the document to read the exact figure).If the pilot in Tassie (and the pilot of another Airtourer who forced landed after running out of fuel a few years ago) had known about that perhaps things would've been different - maybe only embarrassment at the destination .

I've been flying Airtourers for 40 years. Even in the early years I was wary of the gauge. It took a long time before I started to be very wary of the dipstick as well.

 

Going somewhere, two people and a little bit of baggage, not enough weight to fill the tank. I now wonder how close I came to having a similar accident when I was a young lad operating out of Essendon.

 

More of a problem with the more powerful engine with fuel flows varying between 35 and 50 litre per hour depending on the tasks so altogether not easy to correlate a fuel log with dipstick readings over any number of flights.

 

(The T-6 model is altogether a more sensible aeroplane with a better dipstick)

Very pertinent comments. When Henry Millicer designed the Airtourer it was modelled around the 100 hp variant. He also used the rubber fuel cell that was in use with the Jindivik drone, and obligingly placed between the two spars in the fuselage. There are many positives with this design feature. Not too many Airtourers have burnt post bingles (Cliff Tait's being an interesting variant), but sitting on up to 28.7 gallons of avgas is initially unsettling.

Determining just how much fuel is on board the old girl has been a perenial problem for any Airtourer pilot. Full Tanks, no issue. Any less would be a challenge for Sherlock Holmes! You can not visually assess fuel quantity. The fuel gauge originally fitted probably lead to the adage of: "never trust a fuel gauge". The dipstick might give an accurate reading when all the planets are lined up. Uneven ground, wrong angle of the dangle and evaporation on a hot day all conspire for the prospective Airtourer pilot to not be entirely certain how much gas is on board.

Given the aerobatic capability of the Aitrourer, it has been used estensively in this role over many years. Fine airframe for aeros, but universally recognised as being horsepower challenged!! They reckon 150 hp is a bit short, but obviosly have not tried 100 hp!! Not too many pilots take an Airtourer up for aeros with a full tank. With two up 70 litres is about max anyway. Good design leaves only 0.3 of a gallon of unuseable fuel, but nose high atiitude or rapid accelleration is probably going to put low quatitiies of fuel at a point adjacent to the fuel pickup. Both fuel pumps are above the level of the fuel tank so you need at least one, preferably both working well to create noise up front.

It was sad to see MTC in such poor shape. It was the first 150 hp conversion done in Australia by Brain Davies at Jandakot in the early 70's. By the same token it took one hell of a hit, and still maintained enough structural integrity for the pilot to slide the canopy back and walk away. I am sure Henry would have walked out of the the great hangar in the sky, and smiled!

naremman

Have just recently completed a PPL AFR, in conjuction with a GA to RAA transition to achieve a RAA Pilot Certificate.

Phil Butherway was the gentleman that made this possible, and holds GA/RAA Instructor ratings.

A bit rare to kill two birds with one stone in aviation

naremman

Great footage. As much a demonstration of what not to do as it is by showing some elements of flight most pilots don't visit.

Interesting flick roll. Look for the strong lead in full rudder followed by full up application of elevator. The fact that it was unstable after completing 360 degrees of roll shows how close to the edge that it was. If it was a test of the structural integrity of the rudder and elevator it think it just passed!!

The images of the spin should form the basis of an instructional video. It took the best part of a full rotation to stabilize nose down, two rotations stabilized and crisp recovery. Great demonstration of the classic stall too.

If I had been a spectator on the ground I think I would have had my heart in my mouth.

Probably rates in the same category of the first Boeing 707 being barrel rolled.

naremman

Very early on in my in my training my instructor introduced me to old adage of: "there are only two types of pilots. Those who have, and those who are about to".

This video is graphic evidence of two pilots making the transition!

If it makes you feel any better, I have never done a GA to RAA conversion (on jabiru's) that took any less than 10 hours. Cessna's and the like are designed to be easy to fly, once GA guys jump in a jab or similar, they realise that the aircraft is flying them. It takes some time to get things happening. oh, and they are normally shocked to find out that the pedals on the floor aren't footrest's.

Don't be disheartened.

 

cheers

Yikes motzartmerv. Nobody achieving a GA to RAA transition in sub 10 hours?

I have just been down that path with Phil Butherway, who is based at Beverly in WA and has joint GA/RAA Instructor ratings. I had nailed the J160 to Phil's satisfaction inside 3 hours, and completed the 5 hour requirement in a Foxbat to provide a contrast. I must admit having a good amount of Victa Airtourer time was a decided advantage. It would also be appropriate to give Phil the highest acknowlegment possible for his great work in the process.

My daughter has just learn to fly RAA on a J160, and will at some stage be looking at making the RAA/GA transition in our Cessna 172. I will be fascinated to observe her progress, but will be stongly advocating that she talks to Phil very early on.

The principle focus should always be that we aim to achieve a flying standard so that we can operate an aircraft safely. Hours are ostensibly irrelevant

Glen. Given your CFI role what is the range of hours your students have taken, and around what would be the average?

Does learning in summer or winter make any difference?

naremman

Two litre plastic ice cream container, c/w lid is good.

As a vollie ambulance officer with St John Ambulance WA, as well as RFDS, we use the famous "chunder tube", which is a long plastic tube with solid plastic top collar which can seal contents. Brilliant. But don't know the supply source.

In 37 years of flying I have only has two passengers recycle lunch, which I suppose purs me at the better end of the spectrum.

naremman

Can't wait to get out there and try these so called spins :big_grin: I hope I won't be disappointed by the weather again

Hope your lessons on spinning really expand your flying knowledge. It really is a sound investment.

In one of your earlier posts it sounded as if the cost for the Tiger Moth was a bit daunting. If you are looking for a definitive demonstation of the stall/spin characteristics an hour with Trevor Jones in the Tiger would be worth multiple hours in a C152. Some time in a Tiger allows one to appreciate its strong points, as well as demonstrating just how far we have moved on from operating an open cockpit aircraft from all over grass airfields and getting a majestic 75 knots from a rattling 130 hp up front!!

Welcome to aviation. Hope you are finding that life now has a new dimension.

Great to learn with your husband. My late first wife also gained her PPL and we shared many aviation adventures, meeting many new friends, seeing new sights, and sometimes ending up in places that we never intented to visit (usually weather related, not navigational misadventure).

I have just gained RAA pilot certification after 37 years GA experience, and was quite impressed with the Jab 160 as a training aircraft. My daughter has learned to fly on a Jab 160 and I thought it was a good idea to gain RAA certification so that we might fly together.

I hope that the Skippy username is not applicable to your landings!!. May they all be greasers.

Hope you enjoy your aeros in the old Airtourer Pete. I am a long time Airtourer owner and have always enjoyed the control responsiveness, especially in aeros.

How many horses up front? I have the 100 hp model which always proves a challenge in aeros as you are trading height for speed.

Keep us posted on the progress.

As a GA pilot of 37 years and a recent convert to RAA I find this an interesting issue. In gaining endosements on a Jabiru and Foxbat I found the stalls and stall in a turn rather indistinct. Only the Foxbat with flap and power on demonstrated a well defined nose drop on the stall. My instructor, a mature gentleman, with loads of GA & RAA instructional time intoned a "I would rather we didn't" when I mentioned incipients spins. From my observations both aircaft if operated within sensible limits are unlikely to spring any unexpected, or hairy moments.

I was fortunate to gain an aerobatic endorsement with John Douglas at the WA Royals just as I gained my unrestricted licence and purchased an Airtourer 100. I have enjoyed many hours of aeros for pleasure, and the skills I have gained from aerobatics have certainly enhanced my overall flying. The Airtourer is a good airframe for aeros, but be mindful that the altimeter unwinds at a fast rate. The stall and incipient spin are straight out of the textbook, though the spin is a bit unique to the Airtourer, and the transition into the spin can be lively with unusual audio effects.

I would rate the Tiger Moth as displaying the classic stall & spin characteristics of the aircraft that I have flown. The spin in a Chippie is a great example of a stabilised spin, but I remember that it takes a fair bit to get it stabilised, and then unstuck and a whole lot of vertical airspace has been chewed up.

The principle benefit of advanced stall/spin and aerobatic training is to recognise the onset of airflow distress and rectify the situation. In the event that it does go pear shaped sound recovery skills are a decided benefit.

Most aircraft flying today are inherantly stable, which is great for every day flying, but if that airframe "lets go" that stability might not be your friend.

If a reality check is needed look up some of the accidents incurred by Cessna 150s in mustering operations. Some images of the venerable old 150s "candled" into the deck are most sobering.

The previous posts advocating training for aerobatics in GA are prudent advise. Find a good instructor in the appropriate aircraft, and whilst the bill might give you a fright, it could well be a sound investment.

On another note. I put jabiru into the search function of You Tube and got directed to footage of a Jabiru doing a loop. My comments are probably not printable. Mate, you did RAAs cause no good, and hope like hell that I never fly an aircraft following your use. Maybe you could go to Bundaberg and offer your services for the destructive analysis of Jab aircraft!!